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Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

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Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#61

Universal health care is a euphemism for the poor and sick getting their medical care subsidized by the wealthy and healthy. Morally, caring for the sick seems like the right thing to do, but it's like when I hear Bernie Sanders call for "free college education": he doesn't mean free, he means the wealthy subsidizing it for others. Universal health care implies just distributed costs, but the focus should be on bring…

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Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#62

Universal health care doesn't require government coercion. Many more people in the US would have access to health care, including insurance for catastrophic events, if the state and federal governments stopped interfering in the supply side. The same groups that use force to prevent new hospitals being built, restrict the number of doctors, prevent nurses and nurse practitioners from treating many problems they're mo…

Penn Jillette also believes global warming is a conspiracy. No nation with free market health insurance has universal healthcare, so as the person making an extraordinary claim, it's on you to come up with proof.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#63

If you get cancer, would you rather be treated in the US or Europe? Survival rates are significantly higher in the US, so I know what I'd choose. And yeah, I'll pay more, too, because I want high quality doctors.

Not that true: https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/06/13/why-the-us-has...

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#64
post #6

When a person gets a life threatening disease they ought not worry about whether or not their treatment will leave their family in penury. This is especially so in a nation as wealthy as the U.S. The American healthcare system is immoral and I hope it drastically changes. Americans need to change their underlying notions of what it means to be a society. An author was once made fun of for suggesting that it takes a v…

There was a good comment(I have it saved somewhere) explaining this quite well - some places in the world(European nations mostly) got so fucked over by history, over and over and over again that as societies they realized you cannot "pull yourself by your bootstraps" and provide for yourself in all circumstances. Just in the 20th century it was possible to see your country ravaged by two world wars, change ideologies three times, change the dominant religion and ownership of land between major powers few times in just few decades.....the societies have realized that the only way to make it work is by providing certain services to everyone, free of charge, purely because they are citizens with no strings attached(and no, this has nothing to do with communism). Meanwhile, in US, the "pioneer" ideal still reigned - anyone could achieve anything, given enough hard work. That ideal didn't exist in Europe at the time, or was crushed so thoroughly its destruction echoed through society - you could be the most hardworking person in Europe, but if someone decided they were going to pillage your land, rape your family and send you all to concentration camps - that was going to happen. No amount of positive thinking and hard work was going to prevent it. So yes, to my granparents it's absolutely obvious that everyone should have equal chances - healthcare should be funded by the state, as should education and child-bearing. They still get really upset over the fact that despite all education being 100% free in this country students still have to pay for their own housing - why should they? The state wants to have well educated citizens, why the hell should the students be paying anything to study. Once again, this has nothing to do with communism, but I am sure Americans would label it as such.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#65
Universal healthcare is not a silver bullet, in certain Eastern European Countries we pay a large amount of our salary in taxes so that we have universal healthcare and yet you still have to give "gifts" to every nurse and doctor that treats you unless you want the bare minimum treatment and care. Doctors can also intentionally botch surgeries if you fail to pay up. Not so much that it can be called malpraxis though.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#66
post #6

When a person gets a life threatening disease they ought not worry about whether or not their treatment will leave their family in penury. This is especially so in a nation as wealthy as the U.S. The American healthcare system is immoral and I hope it drastically changes. Americans need to change their underlying notions of what it means to be a society. An author was once made fun of for suggesting that it takes a v…

> When it comes to public funding for public goods we tend to worry about some poor person getting something they don’t deserve. The go it alone I’ve got mine, fuck you attitude is unhealthy.

1/3 of our GDP goes to "the village". We spend trillions every year on the things you want most. Education, healthcare, environmental protections. You name it; we spend money on it!

70 million people use medicaid. 44 million people use medicare. 22 million veterans eligible for the VA. 22 million government employees who receive healthcare benefits paid for by the state.

We are drowning in the healthcare spending you pretend doesn't exist.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#67

If you get cancer, would you rather be treated in the US or Europe? Survival rates are significantly higher in the US, so I know what I'd choose. And yeah, I'll pay more, too, because I want high quality doctors.

Survival rates are higher as they are detected earlier. So this should be - where would I rather have my cancer detected. But again it is not that clear:

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/cancer-spen... Quote: A new study shows that the U.S. spends far more than Europe on cancer care but has a higher mortality rate for lung cancer, the leading killer

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#68
post #6

When a person gets a life threatening disease they ought not worry about whether or not their treatment will leave their family in penury. This is especially so in a nation as wealthy as the U.S. The American healthcare system is immoral and I hope it drastically changes. Americans need to change their underlying notions of what it means to be a society. An author was once made fun of for suggesting that it takes a v…

If you think the private healthcare system is immoral, you should take a look at the 100% government ran healthcare system that is the VA. You literally couldn't make up worse things than their administration has been caught doing with little or to consequence. If the VA is the best the US government can do, with some of the most sympathetic citizens, then it is incapable of doing better than our private system.

The VA is far from perfect and is really noticeably worse than many other country's nationalized health systems. But it's not obviously worse than private health insurance in the US and generally veterans are as happy with their health care as other people. I think the VA example tends to dispel the notion that single payer would save that much money but it works about as well as other approaches, of which the US has way too many.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#69

When the issue of universal health care comes up with regards to US policy I often see those emotional arguments pulling on the heart strings. Unfortunately, this is a distraction. I know this sounds cold, but it comes down to money. Healthcare in America is expensive. The problems appear to be commonly identified by various forms of research and including things like pricing inefficiencies of drugs, malpractice insu…

Fun fact that most Americans don't know:

We _ALREADY_ spend more than enough on healthcare as a nation to fully fund healthcare for everybody. It's just that, unlike in other countries, our current system routes that spending to various for profit entities that don't involve actually providing care.

tldr; Lack of funding is not a legitimate argument against providing healthcare to Americans.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#70
post #23

A problem with government-provided healthcare is that the government will have ultimate say over a patient's care. This is not merely theoretical. Last week, Alfie Evans, a 2 year old, was put to death by the state-run healthcare in the UK.[0] "Alfie's parents had offers of care in Rome, where doctors said they would investigate different treatments. Even Pope Francis appealed to the British government to let Alfie g…

This is not merely theoretical. Last week, Alfie Evans, a 2 year old, was put to death by the state-run healthcare in the UK Please don't spread misinformation about this particular topic.

A UK court ruled he could not seek treatment elsewhere, and was ordered off life support. That's not misinformation, it's reality.

edit Downvoted for citing a verifiable fact. This is a remarkably emotional, politically-charged thread. Comments and voting in this thread are driven not by logic and reason, but by emotion and political bias.

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