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Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

economist.com

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Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#91

Post by JoeAltmaier »

edanm wrote: post #84
Pharylon wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Penn Jillette also believes global warming is a conspiracy. No nation with free market health insurance has universal healthcare, so as the person making an extraordinary claim, it's on you to come up with proof.

> Penn Jillette also believes global warming is a conspiracy. Ummm, no he doesn't? This was something he believed in the past but has since changed his mind about.

Well, he spouts whatever makes a youtube video gets hits. Without research or background. He is an entertainer after all. What he actually believes is probably unknown.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#93

Post by sykh »

conanbatt wrote: post #74
sykh wrote: post #6

When a person gets a life threatening disease they ought not worry about whether or not their treatment will leave their family in penury. This is especially so in a nation as wealthy as the U.S. The American healthcare system is immoral and I hope it drastically changes. Americans need to change their underlying notions of what it means to be a society. An author was once made fun of for suggesting that it takes a v…

> When a person gets a life threatening disease they ought not worry about whether or not their treatment will leave their family in penury. You can't start any economic argument by saying that paying any cost is a must. You will get fleeced. It is not true that universal healthcare pays for everything. The most expensive and experimental treatments will not be covered ever by the system, and it shouldnt.

It is a well known fact that all medical care systems ration care. A person in America who gets cancer, say, often times faces bankrupt and financial ruin. The same can not be said of people in other wealthy nations.

I fail to see your point. All healthcare systems ration care. Not all of them lead to financial ruin at the rate the American healthcare system does. My statement stands. A person ought not face financial ruin. It may be the case that there aren’t enough resources to treat the disease it this does not negate the belief that they shouldn’t face financial ruin.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#94

Post by clarkevans »

sykh wrote: post #6

When a person gets a life threatening disease they ought not worry about whether or not their treatment will leave their family in penury. This is especially so in a nation as wealthy as the U.S. The American healthcare system is immoral and I hope it drastically changes. Americans need to change their underlying notions of what it means to be a society. An author was once made fun of for suggesting that it takes a v…

> It seems the public interest is subordinate to private interests and often times with immoral consequences.

This perspective of public vs private interest is rather puzzling to me -- it's more a matter of short-term vs long-term thinking. In the long-term, it's in the private interest of those having sustainable companies to have a broad base of educated and healthy workers to employ. The short-term interest of any single firm has a different calculus, but all private companies would benefit from a stronger public education and health system.

The goal of government, in my opinion, is to focus on long-term objectives: ensuring a sustainable healthy and educated population.

It's similar case for education. It's not that I'm paying for someone else's kids school so much as I'm paying so that one day, when I need a smart educated nurse to take care of me... it'll likely happen at a reasonable price because there are so many educated people who have decided to be nurses.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#95

Post by blueline »

programmarchy wrote: post #22

If you get cancer, would you rather be treated in the US or Europe? Survival rates are significantly higher in the US, so I know what I'd choose. And yeah, I'll pay more, too, because I want high quality doctors.

>I'll pay more, too,

This isn't an option if you are poor

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#96

Post by delinka »

announcerman wrote: post #65

Universal healthcare is not a silver bullet, in certain Eastern European Countries we pay a large amount of our salary in taxes so that we have universal healthcare and yet you still have to give "gifts" to every nurse and doctor that treats you unless you want the bare minimum treatment and care. Doctors can also intentionally botch surgeries if you fail to pay up. Not so much that it can be called malpraxis though.

How can a surgery be "botched" but not be malpractice?

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#97

Post by Sangermaine »

rukittenme wrote: post #77
monocasa wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The VA was a good system not too long ago, but the past couple decades has seen it get extremely underfunded in a starve the beast strategy. It used to be a black eye in the Republican's view of healthcare, but they sure fixed that.

What makes you think universal healthcare would be any different? If you recognize the VA's failings, and you blame Republicans for it, what's to stop them from doing it to every "good" idea you have? If a few motivated politicians can ruin the lives of millions those politicians shouldn't have that power in the first place.

>What makes you think universal healthcare would be any different?

Because America isn't the entire world and there are many places where socialized healthcare of various forms have been very successfully implemented for a long time. The idea peddled by conservatives in America that the only options for socialized healthcare are inevitable failure or tyranny is simply, demonstrably nonsense.

It's exactly this kind of parochial, limited mindset that needs to change.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#98

Post by judah »

judah wrote: post #70
matthewmacleod wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not merely theoretical. Last week, Alfie Evans, a 2 year old, was put to death by the state-run healthcare in the UK Please don't spread misinformation about this particular topic.

A UK court ruled he could not seek treatment elsewhere, and was ordered off life support. That's not misinformation, it's reality. edit Downvoted for citing a verifiable fact. This is a remarkably emotional, politically-charged thread. Comments and voting in this thread are driven not by logic and reason, but by emotion and political bias.

>> "There was no treatment to be had in Rome"

You are misinformed. The article I linked to showed that Italian doctors "said they would investigate different treatments."

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#99

Post by AstralStorm »

merpnderp wrote: post #8
adaml_623 wrote: post #4

Just going to throw this out there. Non universal health care is analogous to half the roads in a city being toll roads. Society can still function and you can mostly get to where you're going but it's not close to efficient.

Why are toll roads not close to efficient? In my state the toll roads are by far the nicest best maintained roads and the tolls are extremely reasonable and collected without having to slow down or stop at a booth.

Who collects the tolls? Is it a private company or a government body with motive different than maximum profit?

For example in Poland we got the most expensive toll motorways in Europe because a private company owns them and continues to demands exorbitant prices for passage with nobody to stop it.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#100

Post by Fomite »

merpnderp wrote: post #10
sykh wrote: post #6

When a person gets a life threatening disease they ought not worry about whether or not their treatment will leave their family in penury. This is especially so in a nation as wealthy as the U.S. The American healthcare system is immoral and I hope it drastically changes. Americans need to change their underlying notions of what it means to be a society. An author was once made fun of for suggesting that it takes a v…

If you think the private healthcare system is immoral, you should take a look at the 100% government ran healthcare system that is the VA. You literally couldn't make up worse things than their administration has been caught doing with little or to consequence. If the VA is the best the US government can do, with some of the most sympathetic citizens, then it is incapable of doing better than our private system.

For a large number of different outcomes, the VA is superior to private care. It has a disproportionate footprint because "The VA does something bad!" is national news, while "SmallSizeMidwestCity Memorial does something bad!" isn't.

It's not perfect, by any means, and struggles with cost constraints (veterans are sympathetic, but sympathetic doesn't mean well supported), but many of its quality outcomes are superior.

See, for example, https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/articl...

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