YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating • Hacker News Board

Re: YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating

#161

Post by majormajor » Tue, May 01, 2018, 9:04 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #138

majormajor wrote: post #39

A bit of chatter here about "it eventually catches up to people anyway" that I think misses the point. You want people to learn when the stakes are low. This is better for them, and it's better for all of us. School should gradually go from low stakes to higher stakes, not be a low-stakes zone the whole time that then tosses people into the real world. Otherwise you're presented with terrible choices like expelling a…

When are the stakes low vs. high when it comes to academic plagiarism? I would think that the stakes are always quite low, at least until you get to post-graduate academic work where plagiarism can have legal or serious ethical (e.g. medical research) problems. You seem to be claiming that at some point the stakes become "truly" high, and thus we ought to artificially punish plagiarism so that people learn that there…

I'm claiming that encouraging plagiarism artificially punishes the "I can do the work but I freeze up in a high-pressure/high-stakes do-or-die situation like an interview" crowd - because it means that that's the only tool I can trust to weed out the people who've just coasted on bullshit their whole lives.

The high-ness of the stakes at the college level seems to depend on if you have scholarships or similar - I've seen those be pulled, but haven't seen people I've known personally be actually expelled. So if you're fully dependent on them, it's bad, otherwise, it's no big deal. After college it depends on the type of job - some bigco or government orgs seem perfectly happy to carry a bunch of dead weight around.

Pre-college is mostly a super-low-stakes area for kids these days, but complicated by something 'tcfunk points out in a sibling comment, where authority figures lie about that - claiming everything is dire - but the kids also know their teachers/administrators are full of shit. My friends and I were very good at finding out which rules we could break with impunity - having too many rules, if anything, watered down the seriousness of the important ones.

So where you see problems are e.g. kids who could get away with anything suddenly running afoul of drug laws, or losing their scholarship over rules that didn't have teeth in high school, etc. Of course, the better off you are, the more easily you can weather that stuff - but to me, the root is that we're very opaque with our kids about what you'll get into real trouble over or not, and it changes in a very lumpy manner.

Re: YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating

#162

Post by warent » Tue, May 01, 2018, 9:04 PM UTC

RIMR wrote: post #158

I would love to see universities set a precedent and just catalog these YoutTbers by name, and then let them know that they are permanently barred from ever being admitted to their schools. That would send a very strong message about how dishonorable academic cheating is. Anyone promoting it is unfit for higher education, for obvious reasons.

Disagree. I argue that a poorly educated person would be more likely to cheat. In a sense, that punishment would be refusing education for the crime of lacking education.

Re: YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating

#163

Post by RIMR » Tue, May 01, 2018, 9:07 PM UTC

eecsninja wrote: post #157

madeofpalk wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No this is a problem in the real world as well. If you are asked to do something but instead you pay someone else to do it, that is bad and you will get in trouble for doing it http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-21043693

From what I can see, the real problem was that he leaked confidential information to the outside world. Unless we can prove some harm to the consumer or the shareholder, I don't see why anyone outside of the company should care. I still see this as a contractual matter. If his employment contract strictly forbade him from doing this (and it might very well do so), then that's grounds for termination. Just like how co…

He could have taken on outsourcing as a side-project, outsourced a major portion of his job successfully, demonstrated it to higher ups transparently, and landed a better role as an outsourcing specialist.

Instead, he secretly outsourced his entire job and pretended to actually do the work himself so he could get paid to do nothing.

The company fired him because he didn't operate in a way that was good for the company, only in a way that benefited him personally.

People like him don't belong in management, they belong in jobs that don't require any trust, because they aren't trustworthy people.

Re: YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating

#164

Post by eecsninja » Tue, May 01, 2018, 9:09 PM UTC

local_yokel wrote: post #154

eecsninja wrote: post #130

I'm really disappointed by the downvotes that sithadmin, misterbowfinger, and I have been receiving in this thread. Let me restate the argument, not in favor of cheating but why it's not the moral issue that everyone makes it out to be: 1. Cheating is only an issue in the artificial world of academia, where it goes against how the system is supposed to work. 2. We only think it is a moral issue because it's been dril…

How is cheating only an issue in academia? It shows a lack of ethics and a lack of knowledge on the part of the student, and these are things that are quite important to being able to do a good job in the real world. You say "the current system is stupid", "academia is an artificial world", and "past projects and word of mouth" are what matters. Past projects and word of mouth are both systems that are ripe for manip…

I agree about the lack of ethics, but that's something to be screened by future employers or school admissions.

I don't disagree with schools having penalties for cheating. But on the moral severity scale, it's really an infraction rather than a felony. Would you call jaywalkers bad people?

If you want to see why I have such a disdain for academia, here's my story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16726402

Re: YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating

#165

Post by eecsninja » Tue, May 01, 2018, 9:14 PM UTC

RIMR wrote: post #163

eecsninja wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I can see, the real problem was that he leaked confidential information to the outside world. Unless we can prove some harm to the consumer or the shareholder, I don't see why anyone outside of the company should care. I still see this as a contractual matter. If his employment contract strictly forbade him from doing this (and it might very well do so), then that's grounds for termination. Just like how co…

He could have taken on outsourcing as a side-project, outsourced a major portion of his job successfully, demonstrated it to higher ups transparently, and landed a better role as an outsourcing specialist. Instead, he secretly outsourced his entire job and pretended to actually do the work himself so he could get paid to do nothing. The company fired him because he didn't operate in a way that was good for the compan…

You're right, actually. He hasn't proved trustworthy, but that's because he leaked confidential company materials.

I don't get why this is being brought up as a matter of cheating rather than leaking, which is the big elephant in the room.

Still shows a lack of ethics though.

Re: YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating

#166

Post by a-dub » Tue, May 01, 2018, 9:21 PM UTC

I suspect that if training and social sorting weren't conflated in academia the way that they are today, the training would be much more effective.

Re: YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating

#167

Post by com2kid » Tue, May 01, 2018, 9:21 PM UTC

eecsninja wrote: post #130

I'm really disappointed by the downvotes that sithadmin, misterbowfinger, and I have been receiving in this thread. Let me restate the argument, not in favor of cheating but why it's not the moral issue that everyone makes it out to be: 1. Cheating is only an issue in the artificial world of academia, where it goes against how the system is supposed to work. 2. We only think it is a moral issue because it's been dril…

> 1. Cheating is only an issue in the artificial world of academia, where it goes against how the system is supposed to work.

People who cheat their way to a degree, are lying to future employees about possessing a level of knowledge that they do not have.

An academic degree is bestowed upon a graduate as a sort of symbol of authenticity, backed by the college/university's reputation, that the graduate has a certain level of mastery in a given set of topics.

This mastery includes both a broad base, the ability to make well reasoned arguments, perform basic research, write papers, an understanding of world history, and other undergraduate degree pre-reqs.

Cheating is a way for a student to acquire such certification without having done the work, and without having learned the skills that work imparts.

> Academic grades and degrees, to the extent that they affect your life after academia, should be based on what you can accomplish or explain, not how well you can write answers.

The cheating services being offered here are about writing essay papers, which are the most basic case of being able to produce an end product after having applied research and critical thinking to a problem space.

Being able to communicate, and think, in a clear and coherent manner is one of the very foundations of a classic liberal education. It is also one of the most important skills for almost any professional job.

Lying about possessing that ability is a form of deceit, and by common consensus, morally objectionable.

Re: YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating

#168

Post by eecsninja » Tue, May 01, 2018, 9:23 PM UTC

eecsninja wrote: post #130

I'm really disappointed by the downvotes that sithadmin, misterbowfinger, and I have been receiving in this thread. Let me restate the argument, not in favor of cheating but why it's not the moral issue that everyone makes it out to be: 1. Cheating is only an issue in the artificial world of academia, where it goes against how the system is supposed to work. 2. We only think it is a moral issue because it's been dril…

Regarding that employee who outsourced his work:

It's not that he didn't do anything wrong. It's that "cheating" is an artificial construct that should be done away with in our way of thinking, and instead we should learn to apply other ethical standards to these things. For example, he's still guilty of breach of security and leaking of confidential information.

You might be wondering, what's the big difference? In the end, we still have this action being judged as unethical.

The point I'd like you to take away is that you should critically analyze things, especially those taught to you at a early age and for a long time. Hopefully we can see how artificial the system is, and find ways to build a better system. I am not anywhere close to having kids, but I do intend to absorb as much real-world experience as I can over the next few years, so that I can be a better teacher to them than the school system can be.

Re: YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating

#169

Post by eecsninja » Tue, May 01, 2018, 9:26 PM UTC

com2kid wrote: post #167

eecsninja wrote: post #130

I'm really disappointed by the downvotes that sithadmin, misterbowfinger, and I have been receiving in this thread. Let me restate the argument, not in favor of cheating but why it's not the moral issue that everyone makes it out to be: 1. Cheating is only an issue in the artificial world of academia, where it goes against how the system is supposed to work. 2. We only think it is a moral issue because it's been dril…

> 1. Cheating is only an issue in the artificial world of academia, where it goes against how the system is supposed to work. People who cheat their way to a degree, are lying to future employees about possessing a level of knowledge that they do not have. An academic degree is bestowed upon a graduate as a sort of symbol of authenticity, backed by the college/university's reputation, that the graduate has a certain…

> People who cheat their way to a degree, are lying to future employees about possessing a level of knowledge that they do not have.

Not if they don't apply to jobs.

> Being able to communicate, and think, in a clear and coherent manner is one of the very foundations of a classic liberal education. It is also one of the most important skills for almost any professional job.

You can't assess that by talking to someone during an interview?

> Lying about possessing that ability is a form of deceit, and by common consensus, morally objectionable.

Agreed. That's a matter for when the person is applying to jobs.

If he just gets the degree and becomes a trust fund kid for the rest of his life, who is being harmed?

Re: YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating

#170

Post by shabble » Tue, May 01, 2018, 9:27 PM UTC

eecsninja wrote: post #145

trendia wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Homework and exams have two purposes: 1. Help the student learn (by applying theory in homework and encouraging internalization for exams), and 2. Verifying that students have learned the material Cheating destroys both of those. A student can copy a solution to a general relativity problem, but that doesn't mean they understand it, and likewise they can obtain the exam before they take it and memorize th…

And why do we care in a real-world sense whether this student has cheated in general relativity? If that person goes to a physics lab, he would be found out eventually. In a real-world sense, cheating hurts nobody except the person doing it, if even that.

Would you want to be that surgeon's first patient?