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A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

sam.zeloof.xyz

111–120 of 122 posts

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#111

When I read things like this I start to think about the following question: Given no technology at all (i.e. after an apocalypse!), how would one go about creating a computer (as we know them). What sort of knowledge would you need? The science of these things is basically multi decades of trial and error in various disciplines. Imagine a manual that explained how to create everything from scratch!

I have a position that the one of the most important technologies needed for interstellar travel (and basically colonizing the entire galaxy) is simply a compact semiconductor fab at a pretty good node -- and it's a technology that almost no one is giving any thought or attention to.

Why do I say so? Because imo the most feasible form of interstellar travel is extremely slow (think a few times Voyager probe speed). Most of the technology (energy, propulsion, etc) to achieve this already exists (unlike proposals like Project Starshot), and you can take huge amounts of mass with you.

The problem is, things break down on your way. Going slow permits bringing large radiation shields (made simply of water), but the time between Star systems would still be of the order 10,000-100,000 years. Not much needs to be done on the way -- hence most circuits and mechanisms can be kept inactive -- but still you're going to have circuits and all sorts of equipment break down. There's a minimum energy expenditure needed for course correction and an associated simple but constant information processing required. So I believe you essentially need to have a way to keep fabricating chips on your way (unless you could store some reserves in a very well shielded compartment?), probably every few hundreds of years. Some elements may need recycling too. Some mechanical components e.g. propulsion systems might need periodic reconstruction/recycling also, but the technology for compact mechanical manufacturing is pretty well established -- a good machine shop with a few CNC mills, maybe some 3D printers and the like can be made to manufacture a complete propulsion system, while also having total self-fabrication capability.

There's also necessity of chips for when arriving at the destination -- again simply bringing the chips with you probably isn't viable, since it would be a while once you could establish a large modern semiconductor manufacturing plant. Again a compact fab is needed (the Starship plant itself could be used in the beginning).

Once you have those kind of capable Starships (which require some difficult but not unthinkable technology), colonizing the galaxy isn't really out of question, provided there are enough Earth-like planets (or other kinds of technologically-feasible planets) out there. You would colonize a planet and use it to build a new Starship once it were well established. Probably needing a few millenia to take over the planet and mine the needed minerals and nuclear fission fuel -- not really a big deal on our colonization time scale of 100,000s of years.

I'm also assuming this is some kind of Generation Ship, because otherwise compact self-fabrication of state of the art semiconductors may be too difficult (one of the amazing things about organic life is its amazing compact self replication). The psychological realities associated with generation ships aren't too rosy, but I think the end goal makes it acceptable (and some engineering can make them not too infernal for their occupants). Plus I find the idea of humans themselves colonizing the Stars more pleasing, but it may well turn out that AI probes will be the ones accomplishing it (if compact state of the art semiconductor fabrication becomes feasible).

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#112
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not just about safety for you, proper disposal of these chemicals is essential for the many generations to come. Yes Gordon Moore created a superfund site or two in California.

Citation needed? The inorganic materials used in semiconductor fabrication, especially in the early days, tend to be fairly benign and are used only in small quantities relative to other industry. The HF monster everyone is talking about in this thread is dangerous only as a concentrated acid. It's highly soluble -- reduce it with a rainstorm or two and let it recombine to a neutral pH and you rapidly get to (literal…

> So it was that while running, but not so much as to force my body into open rebellion, I noticed something odd. When I was heading down the gently sloping hill on Peter Coutts Road towards Stanford Avenue, I turned right as usual to head back home, passed along the edge of a grassy area, and smelled...cookies. But not really cookies. Raw cookie dough. Outside.

http://www.aarongreenspan.com/writing/20130404/in-search-of-...

Lot's of information about the situation in that article. TL;DR: Palo Alto is a toxic cesspit.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#113
post #12

Awesome. For those considering exploring some of these steps in their own garage -- the chemistry is dangerous, perhaps HF in particular, as it doesn't hurt, it just kills you a few hours later. Can you do this in a garage? Absolutely, but learn everything you need to know from an ensemble of safety-minded mentors before you strike out on your own. It's not just about safety for you, proper disposal of these chemical…

Besides IC fabrication, you can also use HF for making mouthwash: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHoUCyQR7h8

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#114
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rectal administration has caused acute colitis with perforation. disturbing that we know this

Not really. Rectal administration of drugs is one of the fastest ways to administer a drug outside of IV. Unfortunately, I found out about it because of a now-deceased friend who succumbed to alcoholism. Near the end, he would drink rectally, since his esophagus was effectively destroyed. Also, since there's no gag reflex to keep you safe, this way is one of the easiest ways to kill yourself with alcohol.

I love learning new things... but not always.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#115
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, caution is always warranted when dealing with HF. However, I don't see any reason why it can't be safely used at home. In fact HF is found in lots of commonly used household cleaning products like rust and stain removers. Plenty of people are using Goof Off Rust remover and are not dropping dead later in the day.

This comment is misinformed and should be deleted because it is so dangerous. HF will kill you for looking at it in the wrong way; please don't handle it unless you understand the danger it poses to you and the people around you.

Why is this comment misinformed? In a video tour of his home lab, Sam Zeloof shows us his acid-storage cabinet and mentions that he gets HF from over-the-counter Whink-brand "Rust Stain Remover"[1].

Since this product is commonly available at hardware stores across the United States, why should comments related to it "be deleted because it is so dangerous"?

I agree that HF can be extremely dangerous, but in this case it's not clear that Sam is working with or advocating use of dangerous concentrations or chemcial forumulations of fluorine-based acids. Maybe I missed a post where he does discuss using more dangerous concentrations or compounds?

[1] https://youtu.be/TrmqZ0hgAXk?t=538

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#116
post #63
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice HF technical overview: https://ehs.unc.edu/files/2015/09/hydrofluoricacid.pdf (tldr; nope; read it.) I needed to dissolve(ha!) fluorite once. You can get it started by adding a few drops of conc H2SO4 to your beautiful aqua regia solution. It goes deeper red, some happy bubbles appear, and as long as it stays put, makes it's own "aqua nasty"(pg88) as you gently add your powdered sample. I thought AQR+SA was call…

If I remember correctly in the book: "1636: The Chronicles of Dr. Gribbleflotz" he made "aqua regia" from "aqua fortis" and "acidum salis" I don't know if either of those were his name for aqua-regia + HydroSulphuric Acid. I know he called ethanol "aqua vitae" by repeatedly distilling wine. He also had "Oil of Vitriol" which he added to saltpeter to make "aqua fortis". He also talked about adding "Oil of Vitriol" to…

Aqua regia is just the name for a mixture of nitric and hydrochloric acid which has the ability to dissolve gold. Aqua fortis was simply an archaic name for nitric acid; acidum salis (literally "salt acid") is likewise an old alchemical name for hydrochloric acid, rather straightforwardly named because it was an acid that was synthesized from salt. (If you ever see hydrochloric acid referred to as "muriatic acid", this is just a somewhat more modernized version of the same name: brine-y/salty acid.)

Oil of vitriol is sulfuric acid. This was also quite a logical name at the time - it's an oily liquid that was made from vitriol (a common term for a class of brightly colored metal sulfate crystals).

So, in the reaction given, when the sulfuric acid is added to saltpeter (potassium nitrate), the sulfate ion swaps places with the nitrate ion and you instead get nitric acid and potassium sulfate.

Source: Have spent far, far too much time researching alchemical nomenclature because I thought it was cool.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#117
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the links. Seems like anyone in the right mind, would not deal with this, in anything other than a professional lab setting.

Even then, you can only work with it in teams of at least 2, all being certified to work with HF, only during normal business hours, and with a safety checklist a mile long, which includes checking to see that the calcium gluconate in the emergency kit is unopened and unexpired, and there are extra gloves with it, so the person applying it to you does not also get poisoned just by touching you.

That reminds me of why I decided against buying a portable sawmill. The nice ones come with an amputation kit, so when you cut something off accidentally there's a tourniquet on hand to slow the bleeding.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#119
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect knowing the fundamentals gets you pretty far, just knowing that UV and masks are a way to do it is enough for people to re-create the tech given the resources. Maybe e-beam would be a easier start? IDK. Not related but fun given the q: https://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/june/computer-water-drop...

>I suspect knowing the fundamentals gets you pretty far, Not much further than eighties, and you are not getting anything done with seventies era ICs. I'd say. After seventies, most of academic research gets almost wholly separate from the fab floor, and of course fab owners and equipment makers keep to their valuable secrets. At TSMC, the EUV workgroup, for example, is a very select cohort of people with 10+ years a…

...considering just how much got done with, say, the 6502, saying you're not getting anything done with 70s-era ICs is patently ludicrous. 70s-era microprocessors brought us the home computer revolution.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> For those considering exploring some of these steps in their own garage -- the chemistry is dangerous, perhaps HF in particular, as it doesn't hurt, it just kills you a few hours later. I was hoping that with 50 years of development behind us, the home fabricators could use less complex methods and less hazardous chemicals. In other words, can the folks who lived it help people like this by saying "If we had to do…

There's just...no reason at all to do it for business purposes. If you're a prepper or looking for a science project I can understand it, it's a cool project. But from a business perspective you can buy the same thing but better for dollars and have it the next day.

The lowest-cost options I know of for commercial custom chip fabrication are MOSIS and CMP. Their pricing starts at €650 for 0.35 μm, but it's true that the result is much better. However, turnaround time is measured in weeks. You seem to be suggesting that there are options that are one order of magnitude faster and two orders of magnitude cheaper (but perhaps with a much coarser feature size).

What are they?

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