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A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

sam.zeloof.xyz

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Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#81

Post by godelski »

restalis wrote: post #46
thefourthchime wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His inspiration, Jeri Ellsworth is just (if not more) impressive. Check out her youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdcKwOo7dmM

[5:16] "...oh, I didn't die having go in there messing with the hydrofluoric acid. My bones do feel a little gelatinous though." I'm not sure if I should admire or condone this kind of attitude in a science related context.

I took it more as "Hey this stuff is dangerous, but the rumors behind this are exaggerated. Play it safe, but it is safe enough to use at home if you are careful."

Here's a Periodic Video where they dunk chicken in multiple acids, including HF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oipksRhISfM

Don't get me wrong, this stuff is dangerous.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#82

Post by logfromblammo »

Thimothy wrote: post #67
ryao wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Water guns are far more dangerous than shotguns given the things you can put into them.

Like, for example, HF.

I hope your "water gun" is made entirely of polypropylene, neoprene, polytetrafluoroethane, polyvinyl fluoride, wax, lead, and/or polyethylene.

And that you're wearing a chemical protection suit with respirator while playing with it. And that you are well aware of wind and weather conditions. And that you take care to keep it out of the environment.

Seems like one of those things that would be more dangerous to the wielder than anyone else.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#83

Post by analognoise »

Confiks wrote: post #2

Have a mini-course into maskless photolithography[1][2], and find out how an old DLP projector combined with some advanced optics can yield this: http://sam.zeloof.xyz/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/IMG_2917-e1... Take a tour in a home fab: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrmqZ0hgAXk His website and Youtube channel are so richly filled with knowledge that so desperately needs to be in the public domain, instead of being…

"His website and Youtube channel are so richly filled with knowledge that so desperately needs to be in the public domain, instead of being locked in corporate structures."

All of this information is public domain, what are you talking about? This is extremely well understood stuff.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#84

Post by analognoise »

fyi1183 wrote: post #42
speedplane wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most electrical and computer engineering undergrad degrees (not CS) do give you this information. You first learn how to create a transistor, then basic AND/OR logic gates with individual transistors, then adders and subtractors, and then eventually a pipelined processor with look ahead execution.

The fundamentals of a transistor, sure, but where does computer engineering include the chemistry of the actual lithography processes?

Yes, it's an undergrad elective to build things like this.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#85

Post by logfromblammo »

laythea wrote: post #57
basicplus2 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh man.. you need to talk to those who have worked with the stuff.. The amount in household products is essentially zero and one drop of the pure stuff and you are gone.. this stuff is nightmare material, i know, i have worked with and around it. 70% pure accident.. PFF http://www.ehs.ucsb.edu/files/docs/ls/HF_fatality.pdf HTML http://www.geo.utexas.edu/geosafety/hf-accident.html 10% strength MSDS HTML http://www.ken…

Thanks for the links. Seems like anyone in the right mind, would not deal with this, in anything other than a professional lab setting.

Even then, you can only work with it in teams of at least 2, all being certified to work with HF, only during normal business hours, and with a safety checklist a mile long, which includes checking to see that the calcium gluconate in the emergency kit is unopened and unexpired, and there are extra gloves with it, so the person applying it to you does not also get poisoned just by touching you.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#86

Post by phendrenad2 »

sjclemmy wrote: post #36

When I read things like this I start to think about the following question: Given no technology at all (i.e. after an apocalypse!), how would one go about creating a computer (as we know them). What sort of knowledge would you need? The science of these things is basically multi decades of trial and error in various disciplines. Imagine a manual that explained how to create everything from scratch!

Building from zero is a fun thought experiment, but it’s a fair assumption that the rebuilding will take place after some catastrophe befalls our world, so perhaps a more useful compendium of knowledge would explain the artifacts that surviving generations will find buried in rubble. Copper wire? CPUs? They’ll have plenty. But will they know how to use them, once the internet ceases to exist?

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#87

Post by azernik »

phkahler wrote: post #54
ISL wrote: post #12

Awesome. For those considering exploring some of these steps in their own garage -- the chemistry is dangerous, perhaps HF in particular, as it doesn't hurt, it just kills you a few hours later. Can you do this in a garage? Absolutely, but learn everything you need to know from an ensemble of safety-minded mentors before you strike out on your own. It's not just about safety for you, proper disposal of these chemical…

>> For those considering exploring some of these steps in their own garage -- the chemistry is dangerous, perhaps HF in particular, as it doesn't hurt, it just kills you a few hours later. I was hoping that with 50 years of development behind us, the home fabricators could use less complex methods and less hazardous chemicals. In other words, can the folks who lived it help people like this by saying "If we had to do…

I think removing oxides inherently requires fantastically reactive (and hence fantastically toxic and/or flammable) chemicals.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#88

Post by anfilt »

terminado wrote: post #17

Geeze, I though you needed a clean room to do this kind of work. I guess, being a hobby, with less concern for effort, loss of product, or cost versus profit, one might summon the will to try, try again, when confronted with botched fabrication runs. Even with millimeter-scale components, I'd still think dust and debris could be a real problem. Is it just that 12 hour runs are short enough to just accept an imperfect…

The smaller you go the more worried you should be about dust, and particles. Also the more layers to your process. Also no mention of yield.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#89

Post by nraynaud »

ISL wrote: post #12

Awesome. For those considering exploring some of these steps in their own garage -- the chemistry is dangerous, perhaps HF in particular, as it doesn't hurt, it just kills you a few hours later. Can you do this in a garage? Absolutely, but learn everything you need to know from an ensemble of safety-minded mentors before you strike out on your own. It's not just about safety for you, proper disposal of these chemical…

so he mentions piranha solution and you reflexively sercurinazi on the HF solution? Get a grip, there are turbo pumps, high vaccum and high voltage everywhere in the setup, don't reflexively repeat HF folklore it doesn't help anybody.

Security is about what's really happening on the ground, not repeating folklore on a particularly trendy point.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#90

Post by bradyd »

bleke wrote: post #47
sjclemmy wrote: post #36

When I read things like this I start to think about the following question: Given no technology at all (i.e. after an apocalypse!), how would one go about creating a computer (as we know them). What sort of knowledge would you need? The science of these things is basically multi decades of trial and error in various disciplines. Imagine a manual that explained how to create everything from scratch!

I'm interesting in this too and wondering why nobody did huge task and compiling everything into one book, starting from refining materials to making 8051/Z80 era pc

There is a book about building a toaster from scratch like this called "The Toaster Project" [1]. The conclusion is that it's extremely difficult and nearly impossible for even a simple device like a toaster. A computer would be significantly more difficult.

[1] http://www.thetoasterproject.org/

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