There are less dangerous ways to explore "building a CPU from scratch" that hit on the really interesting bits. "Digital Computer Electronics" by Malvino and Brown. You are given logic gates (and, or, nor, nand etc) and build up from there to a working CPU. The articles referenced about HF are terrifying. I am a programmer, but, have worked in a chemistry lap. Its just endless stinky stuff that will kill you in a variety of ways. The logic of how a CPU works is more interesting.
A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit
51–60 of 122 posts
Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit
#52Can the process be streamlined into a single amateur-friendly device/lab? Yes, I mean a chip printer, as a commercial product.
I think the chemicals would be the rub. HF is very nasty, as is 'piranha solution'. Both are extremely corrosive, obviously - so it would be hard to build a 'printer' that could deal with the handling and disposal.
Not to mention, a lot of the dopants are pretty nasty too.
Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
His inspiration, Jeri Ellsworth is just (if not more) impressive. Check out her youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdcKwOo7dmM
[5:16] "...oh, I didn't die having go in there messing with the hydrofluoric acid. My bones do feel a little gelatinous though." I'm not sure if I should admire or condone this kind of attitude in a science related context.
> I'm not sure if I should admire or condone this kind of attitude in a science related context.
It makes no difference whatsoever to the whole what you’ve pointed out here.
Throughout the video, she states she’s responding to critics. Her whole attitude is of teasing those who accuse her of not knowing what she does (calling her chips fake, etc).
When she says that, it’s perfectly clear that she’s being very (and I mean very) sarcastic.
We can discuss if her use of sarcasm is useful or not, but then we will be discussing the specifics of her presentation, not her skills at doing the chemical process she just demonstrated.
Since this is a video about “Making Microchips at Home”; since she’s responding to critics; I think we can allow her some room to throw some sarcasm to the mix, even if it does not work out completely as intended.
On a side note: it would be nice if people on the internet would allow others some “humanity"; by that meaning giving them room to err, like saying silly things when they are annoyed — instead of nitpicking bits of unimportant information.
The Internet is already too noiseful as it is.
Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit
#54Awesome. For those considering exploring some of these steps in their own garage -- the chemistry is dangerous, perhaps HF in particular, as it doesn't hurt, it just kills you a few hours later. Can you do this in a garage? Absolutely, but learn everything you need to know from an ensemble of safety-minded mentors before you strike out on your own. It's not just about safety for you, proper disposal of these chemical…
>> For those considering exploring some of these steps in their own garage -- the chemistry is dangerous, perhaps HF in particular, as it doesn't hurt, it just kills you a few hours later.
I was hoping that with 50 years of development behind us, the home fabricators could use less complex methods and less hazardous chemicals. In other words, can the folks who lived it help people like this by saying "If we had to do it over, I'd go about it like...."
Any suggestions? If you had to reboot the chip fab business on a budget what would be a more practical approach?
Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit
#55Awesome. For those considering exploring some of these steps in their own garage -- the chemistry is dangerous, perhaps HF in particular, as it doesn't hurt, it just kills you a few hours later. Can you do this in a garage? Absolutely, but learn everything you need to know from an ensemble of safety-minded mentors before you strike out on your own. It's not just about safety for you, proper disposal of these chemical…
And then you have Phosphene gas used to dope silicon, where people have died changing empty supply tanks.
Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit
#56Awesome. For those considering exploring some of these steps in their own garage -- the chemistry is dangerous, perhaps HF in particular, as it doesn't hurt, it just kills you a few hours later. Can you do this in a garage? Absolutely, but learn everything you need to know from an ensemble of safety-minded mentors before you strike out on your own. It's not just about safety for you, proper disposal of these chemical…
>> For those considering exploring some of these steps in their own garage -- the chemistry is dangerous, perhaps HF in particular, as it doesn't hurt, it just kills you a few hours later. I was hoping that with 50 years of development behind us, the home fabricators could use less complex methods and less hazardous chemicals. In other words, can the folks who lived it help people like this by saying "If we had to do…
There's just...no reason at all to do it for business purposes. If you're a prepper or looking for a science project I can understand it, it's a cool project. But from a business perspective you can buy the same thing but better for dollars and have it the next day.
Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
Of course, caution is always warranted when dealing with HF. However, I don't see any reason why it can't be safely used at home. In fact HF is found in lots of commonly used household cleaning products like rust and stain removers. Plenty of people are using Goof Off Rust remover and are not dropping dead later in the day.
Oh man.. you need to talk to those who have worked with the stuff.. The amount in household products is essentially zero and one drop of the pure stuff and you are gone.. this stuff is nightmare material, i know, i have worked with and around it. 70% pure accident.. PFF http://www.ehs.ucsb.edu/files/docs/ls/HF_fatality.pdf HTML http://www.geo.utexas.edu/geosafety/hf-accident.html 10% strength MSDS HTML http://www.ken…
Thanks for the links. Seems like anyone in the right mind, would not deal with this, in anything other than a professional lab setting.
Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit
#58Impressive to replicate silicon semiconductor process. But wouldn't it be more feasible to develop as good enough process node, flexible, thin film semiconductor devices? Have been observing developments of plastic based transistors, inks, processes like nanoimprint lithography, Cleanroom in a STEM microscope and Chad Mirkin's Tera Print system. Can a small scale nanfab emerge using tech such as Nano-Ops http://nano-…
This has lots of advantages. It removes the need for smaller and smaller chips, it spreads the heat out (a major limitation in electronics packaging today), and it adds a lot of new possibilities.
It's a giant pcb and ic combined, both custom to each other and the application.
Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit
#59Instead of using all these dangerous chemicals, can you use use an alternative like Ion Beam Etch (IBE) or some sort of plasma etching system (given that a person can build one and has the money for everything like turbopumps and grids)? Or is it mandatory to use something like HF to etch?
Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
The fundamentals of a transistor, sure, but where does computer engineering include the chemistry of the actual lithography processes?
I suspect knowing the fundamentals gets you pretty far, just knowing that UV and masks are a way to do it is enough for people to re-create the tech given the resources. Maybe e-beam would be a easier start? IDK. Not related but fun given the q: https://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/june/computer-water-drop...
It's all well and good to know the fundamentals of photolithography, but in a societal boot-strapping scenario it's not enough to get you out of the technological subbasement.
For example, I don't know where or how to derive the necessary chemistry. Or how to construct a building and fans to achieve a clean enough room to do this in. Nor do I know how to build a UV lamp. Hell, I don't know enough about metalworking to reliably manufacture enough wire to build a basic generator to power all this.