This post has a bad title. HN should change it to reflect that OP is specifically talking about living in SF or NYC.
(I still have criticisms of the piece, but it's at least kiiinda understandable when talking about those two cities.)
Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle
31–40 of 97 posts
Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle
#32Because this article completely misdefines "middle class"? Being middle class doesn't mean you can afford absolutely everything you want. It just means you're financially secure enough not to have to choose between food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare with every paycheck, and to be able to save up a buffer in case of emergency. Example: $2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. Instead of buying prepared foods, coo…
$2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. You can feed 3 people on $750/mo. $700/mo/person is $7.65 per meal, which is quite reasonable. $250/mo/person is about $2.70 per meal, which is not. "In 2005, sociologists William Thompson and Joseph Hickey estimate an income range of roughly $35,000 to $75,000 for the lower middle class and $100,000 or more for the upper middle class."[0] In 2018 dollars, that's $44,800 to $9…
My family of 4 does quite well on 800/month in coastal southern California. We only eat organic and eat the RDA of fresh fruit, veggies nuts, meats etc.
The only people I know that spend in the 700 / person are eating out 3-4 times a week at 20+/plate restaurants. Doesn't sound middle class to me.
Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
$2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. You can feed 3 people on $750/mo. $700/mo/person is $7.65 per meal, which is quite reasonable. $250/mo/person is about $2.70 per meal, which is not. "In 2005, sociologists William Thompson and Joseph Hickey estimate an income range of roughly $35,000 to $75,000 for the lower middle class and $100,000 or more for the upper middle class."[0] In 2018 dollars, that's $44,800 to $9…
$250/mo/person is about $2.70 per meal, which is not It's plenty. I just looked at my mint. I've averaged $678/month on groceries for my 3 person family over the last year. One of those 3 people is a toddler so I'm obviously saving some money there. We eat out occasionally (so not part of this budget item) but rarely more than once a week. And I'm not in a position where I have to scrimp. My wife and I had lobster la…
Same here. Family of 4 and we rarely cross $1k/mo for our entire family.
Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle
#34Because this article completely misdefines "middle class"? Being middle class doesn't mean you can afford absolutely everything you want. It just means you're financially secure enough not to have to choose between food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare with every paycheck, and to be able to save up a buffer in case of emergency. Example: $2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. Instead of buying prepared foods, coo…
I found the "well vetted" expense itemization to be non-reflective of my situation. I am (I think) middle class, though thanks to some crap in my recent past I had a significant issue with food/housing anxiety (very long painful story).
2100/month for a family of 3 for food. No. Not even close. If I bought the best of the best stuff from the high end grocer in my town (burbs between Ann Arbor and Detroit), I'd be hard pressed to break 1k/month for 3.
Car ... volvo? No. 1-3 year old used vehicles for me. And soon I am buying another one so I can give my daughter my 9 year old car.
Child care? She's in college now, so lets call that tuition and room/board. This works out to $30k/year in state. If I take an out of state offer, that shoots up to about $100k/year. We looked this up last night as it turns out. Tuition + room/board goes from $14k/semester to $46k/semester.
Most of the rest of the expenses are not relevant.
This all said, the point the article is making is fair and correct, maybe not quantitatively for everyone, but I'd argue the order of magnitude is correct. Some multiple of $100k is needed to raise a family in a middle class scenario while saving for retirement and servicing large debt.
One of the huge turnoffs for the left coast is the real estate issue. This forces me to ask for salary adjustments to make sure I am not impoverishing myself by taking a "better paying" job in CA. I've helped recruiters through the math, similar to this, in my last year job search. The cost of living delta, just from that aspect, was huge. I explained to them that they could leave me where I was, and not deal with that.
It is so bad right now, I could sell my $220k house, and not have enough money for a down payment on a modest similar sized house/property in a reasonable, not upscale, neighborhood in CA. Much less of an issue in NY area, though you have to deal with the traffic getting to/from the trains.
I understand the article was aimed at the left and right coast folks. And the numbers may be more accurate for young families there. For the rest of us in fly over country, this delta means that the larger salaries still generate an often (much) lower quality of life in those locations. It is far worse in CA than NY area. Definitely a disincentive to give those locations significant consideration without dealing with the massive delta in costs. Which most companies are loathe to do.
Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle
#35Because this article completely misdefines "middle class"? Being middle class doesn't mean you can afford absolutely everything you want. It just means you're financially secure enough not to have to choose between food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare with every paycheck, and to be able to save up a buffer in case of emergency. Example: $2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. Instead of buying prepared foods, coo…
Agreed. Also, start with: don't live in one of the most expensive cities in the world and expect luxuries not typically associated with urban living, such as two cars, a spacious home, etc.
Even if you can stay in your career you will earn less as well. All you are doing is moving both numbers the cost and the income down. The article guess into this as well. What's the point of that? There is always someone lucky who can Jeep their job and salary and now work remotely. That's rare though and comes with great anxiety about finding a new, comparable job if your existing one evaporates.
Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I’m not middle class but if you are thrifty and can prioritize freedom over needless expenses ie $5 cup of coffee I'm not sure how the $5 cup of coffee became the symbol of financial irresponsibility. An apartment in Midtown NYC runs about $4k a month. LIC is $2.2k. Yet for some reason we blame the coffee.
It started from the "Latte Factor": https://davidbach.com/latte-factor/ I do find it absurd to pay $5+ for a few ounces of hot water poured over ground beans or chopped leaves and placed into a cup with a mermaid on it, so I don't do it. I also don't think it's the root of people's money problems. However it, combined with 19 other small frivolities, is one branch of their problem in a lot of cases. (The branch being…
Sure - but you're confusing what people are actually paying for when they buy a Starbucks.
When people buy Starbucks, they're buying 15 minutes of time to sit in a warm cafe with friends, free WiFi, a space to work, and the labour involved in having to make the coffee for themselves.
I'm still not sure it amounts to an argument why the $150 a month people would save on coffee are the root of people's money problems, or why they should give up that 19 other small frivolities just so they can afford somewhere to live.
Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle
#37I’m not middle class but if you are thrifty and can prioritize freedom over needless expenses ie $5 cup of coffee it isn’t hard to live very comfortably in many parts of the usa. I understand owning property at all can be much more challenging in europe than it is in much of the usa mainland. Coastland and island living is going to be more expensive for various reasons.
> I’m not middle class but if you are thrifty and can prioritize freedom over needless expenses ie $5 cup of coffee I'm not sure how the $5 cup of coffee became the symbol of financial irresponsibility. An apartment in Midtown NYC runs about $4k a month. LIC is $2.2k. Yet for some reason we blame the coffee.
I don't think anyone "blames the coffee", but rather identifies the coffee as something that could easily be downsized (by simply not drinking it, making it at home, or switching to a cheaper preparation). When you add in tips for the baristas a year not drinking coffee could be worth a month's rent, which is not insignificant.
Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle
#38Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle
#39Because this article completely misdefines "middle class"? Being middle class doesn't mean you can afford absolutely everything you want. It just means you're financially secure enough not to have to choose between food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare with every paycheck, and to be able to save up a buffer in case of emergency. Example: $2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. Instead of buying prepared foods, coo…
$2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. You can feed 3 people on $750/mo. $700/mo/person is $7.65 per meal, which is quite reasonable. $250/mo/person is about $2.70 per meal, which is not. "In 2005, sociologists William Thompson and Joseph Hickey estimate an income range of roughly $35,000 to $75,000 for the lower middle class and $100,000 or more for the upper middle class."[0] In 2018 dollars, that's $44,800 to $9…
A pound of ground beef is like 800 kcal and roughly $3, and more than you'd eat in one sitting. $2.70/meal is more than reasonable, you're just largely cooking stuff yourself.
Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I’m not middle class but if you are thrifty and can prioritize freedom over needless expenses ie $5 cup of coffee I'm not sure how the $5 cup of coffee became the symbol of financial irresponsibility. An apartment in Midtown NYC runs about $4k a month. LIC is $2.2k. Yet for some reason we blame the coffee.
why are people still trying to live in manhattan? yes the trains are starting to really suck i guess but a couple of years ago (when people were still saying this) it took me 30 minutes to get door to door from brooklyn.
Parts of Queens and Brooklyn (c.f the parts where it is easy to get the E into Manhattan) are now approaching what rents were in Manhattan a couple of years ago.