'How piracy works' according to Minecraft creator • Hacker News Board

Re: 'How piracy works' according to Minecraft creator

#31

Post by mquander » Wed, Sep 15, 2010, 1:33 PM UTC

dingy wrote: post #30

mquander wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I said "without crippling the game." You're right, though; most developers will make their problem your problem, either to a small degree (by making sure that some useful things are only accessible for authenticated online clients) or a large degree (requiring always-on connectivity, nutty DRM schemes.) I don't think there's really anything "wrong" with that, though. It's not very fair, but that's how the…

So, it's not fair but there's nothing wrong with it? I don't think we have the same definition of the word "wrong".

I guess we don't.

Re: 'How piracy works' according to Minecraft creator

#32

Post by eru » Wed, Sep 15, 2010, 1:36 PM UTC

billybob wrote: post #25

rsbrown wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for the tiny percentage of superstars, musical artists have always made more money through live performances than recording contracts. Ticket sales, merchandise and other such revenues are much less susceptible to pirating.

Be that as it may, can you see that it's legitimate for a musician to want to make, record, and sell music - not an associated industry of products? And there are fans who don't go to concerts or buy t-shirts, but really like listening to music? If you're a fan like that, and you don't give back to the artist at some point, you're making it less likely that the recordings you want will be made in the future. Notice t…

> And there are fans who don't go to concerts or buy t-shirts, but really like listening to music?

While buying music is one solution, another approach is donating to the artist. (And with easy piracy, both amount to the same thing modulo middle-man.)

Re: 'How piracy works' according to Minecraft creator

#33

Post by mquander » Wed, Sep 15, 2010, 1:39 PM UTC

eru wrote: post #29

eli wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if it doesn't really make sense to add online or multiplayer support to the app/game? Then isn't it just the typical DRM anti-feature? I'd be pretty annoyed if I couldn't play my fun new game on a plane because it needs to constantly connect to the internet to prove I didn't steal it.

That's why the Minecraft creator's solution is sane. He does not block any features without network access. But some features only make sense with network access.

I understand the perceptual difference (it's annoying when features that are already there are "taken away," and less annoying when new features just don't appear.) But is there an actual difference? The time he's spent on network-dependent features may have been spent on other, more interesting features for everyone if the networked features didn't also serve as piracy prophylaxis.

Re: 'How piracy works' according to Minecraft creator

#34

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 15, 2010, 1:43 PM UTC

billybob wrote: post #25

rsbrown wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for the tiny percentage of superstars, musical artists have always made more money through live performances than recording contracts. Ticket sales, merchandise and other such revenues are much less susceptible to pirating.

Be that as it may, can you see that it's legitimate for a musician to want to make, record, and sell music - not an associated industry of products? And there are fans who don't go to concerts or buy t-shirts, but really like listening to music? If you're a fan like that, and you don't give back to the artist at some point, you're making it less likely that the recordings you want will be made in the future. Notice t…

[deleted]

Re: 'How piracy works' according to Minecraft creator

#35

Post by patio11 » Wed, Sep 15, 2010, 1:44 PM UTC

eli wrote: post #22

patio11 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Put it online and downloading the client lets you pirate the game like downloading Firefox lets you pirate Basecamp.

What if it doesn't really make sense to add online or multiplayer support to the app/game? Then isn't it just the typical DRM anti-feature? I'd be pretty annoyed if I couldn't play my fun new game on a plane because it needs to constantly connect to the internet to prove I didn't steal it.

As somebody who makes a living selling software, I do not consider the author getting paid a minor feature. Apologies for the inconvenience, take it up with 80% of your generation.

Re: 'How piracy works' according to Minecraft creator

#36

Post by scott_s » Wed, Sep 15, 2010, 1:48 PM UTC

gyardley wrote: post #23

jokermatt999 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's actually not always true. Check out the reddit thread on this topic, and you'll see plenty of people who pirated first and then actually bought it. I know plenty of pirates use the "I try before I buy" line, but some of them actually do . You're right on your second sentence, but do you have anything whatsoever to back up your first?

Back when my company was using our analytics to track piracy for iPhone applications, we found that 1 out of 243 people who stole an application later installed a legitimate copy. We stopped tracking piracy when we realized that we were getting into a cat-and-mouse game with application pirates and the feature wasn't worth the resources, but I can't imagine these stats have changed much since.

Thank you for bringing data into the discussion.

Re: 'How piracy works' according to Minecraft creator

#37

Post by yason » Wed, Sep 15, 2010, 1:48 PM UTC

wccrawford wrote: post #2

Sadly, pirates don't actually convince their friends to buy it. They help them pirate it. He's right about doing what he can to provide features that pirates can't take advantage of, though. That's the only way to actually combat piracy.

I'm maybe 15 years behind the current trends but all games I've ever bought (when I was still buying games...) were carefully screened and test played using pirated sources. Piracy has always been the de facto news channel for new games: not magazines or demo disks. You had the game coming from your friends first and you saw it weeks or months later in a magazine.

Investing actually money into something as brittle and vague as a video game simply requires that I certainly know what I'm buying. Thus, the title must either be a few-in-a-decade known hit or tested with a pirated version.

If the situation is even remotely like that these days, game publishers are making their money because of piracy, not despite of it.

Re: 'How piracy works' according to Minecraft creator

#38

Post by eli » Wed, Sep 15, 2010, 1:49 PM UTC

eru wrote: post #29

eli wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if it doesn't really make sense to add online or multiplayer support to the app/game? Then isn't it just the typical DRM anti-feature? I'd be pretty annoyed if I couldn't play my fun new game on a plane because it needs to constantly connect to the internet to prove I didn't steal it.

That's why the Minecraft creator's solution is sane. He does not block any features without network access. But some features only make sense with network access.

Yeah, I get it.

But it stinks that developers now have a bias towards online features (because they combat piracy) instead of potential offline features that are more useful or better serve customers.

Re: 'How piracy works' according to Minecraft creator

#39

Post by frobozz » Wed, Sep 15, 2010, 1:52 PM UTC

mquander wrote: post #20

NickPollard wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe this is (most of the time) the best solution these days, but it's still starting from a position of assuming the customer is a criminal. If you're not actually adding any useful internet-based features, then this is just another DRM system that will piss off paying customers when they want to play but don't have a net connection because they're using a laptop on a plane flight.

What's wrong with assuming the customer is a criminal if the big majority of your customers are, in fact, criminals? (Presuming that by "customer" you just mean "person playing your game.") The question should be: how do you account for the fact that your customers are criminals and still make money without crippling your game? Putting useful features online is a good answer to that question.

There are two reasons:

1) It drives your customers to your competitors

If you had a choice between a shop that detained you in an "interview room", and checked your bags, pockets and body cavities against the receipt, every single time you went there, and one that just had a few CCTV cameras, which would you choose?

2) It makes people think "If I'm going to be punished anyway, I might as well commit the crime"

In some countries (IIRC, both Finland & Netherlands do this), purchasers of recordable media are "treated as criminals" and pre-emptively fined for copying music (specifically music, not software). If I were subject to that kind of treatment, you bet I'd copy as much music as I could lay my hands on.

Re: 'How piracy works' according to Minecraft creator

#40

Post by eli » Wed, Sep 15, 2010, 1:55 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #35

eli wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if it doesn't really make sense to add online or multiplayer support to the app/game? Then isn't it just the typical DRM anti-feature? I'd be pretty annoyed if I couldn't play my fun new game on a plane because it needs to constantly connect to the internet to prove I didn't steal it.

As somebody who makes a living selling software, I do not consider the author getting paid a minor feature. Apologies for the inconvenience, take it up with 80% of your generation.

Well as somebody who buys software for a small company, I do not consider unobtrusive and transparent DRM a minor feature. If your licensing scheme is too much of a hassle, I will look elsewhere.