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Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

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Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#401

Post by your-nanny »

legostormtroopr wrote: post #201

What the StackOverflow company fails to get is that their product is assholes and industrial level asshole production. Every question is moderated by volunteers, who have curated every high value question there. From an askers perspective, sure you may have asked 1 slightly off-topic question, but for a reviewer, that’s the 30th off-topic question today - and SO gamifies reviewing so you are encouraged to do so. I us…

There are two functions stack overflow serves:

1. Answering questions people ask, q&a

2. Answering the questions of people stopping by looking for answers.

The output of the former needn't directly be the input consumed by the latter. Bad questions can be tolerated in the former but are intolerable in the latter (noise).

Solution: A curated site of answers searchable by public drawn from the best of q and a from an internal site not indexable by google, etc.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#402

Post by dragonwriter »

manigandham wrote: post #366
dragonwriter wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also why is it that minorities always comes down to not being male or white when half the planet is female and most of the planet is not white? Because that use of language about marginalized/disadvantaged/underrepresented groups arose specifically in the context of racial minorities in the US, at a time when Whites were both an overwhelming majority and socially dominant it of proportion to their numerical dominan…

The comment I replied to said minorities. This isn't about society, it's about a website with worldwide access using anonymous usernames. Nobody is inherently disadvantaged. The exact issue is harsh replies and actions that stem from the gamification dynamics and strict moderation. It has nothing to do with physical traits of the user on either side, especially when users are anonymous. Minorities and marginalized gr…

> The comment I replied to said minorities.

Yes, and I answered your question about where the pattern of using “minorities” as it was used there came from.

> This isn't about society, it's about a website with worldwide access using anonymous usernames.

How is that not part of society?

> Nobody is inherently disadvantaged.

The issue with disadvantaged, underrepresented, and/or marginalized groups has very little to do with inherent disadvantage, and the suggestion that it centrally is about that is fairly broadly offensive, since it implies that such groups are generally inherently inferior.

> The exact issue is harsh replies and actions that stem from the gamification dynamics and strict moderation.

Whether or not that’s true, it had nothing to do with the question you posed and I answered, so I don't see why it is being offered in response.

> Law is based on provable damages,

True.

> which is why it's particularly focused on physical harm.

This is far less true.

> Your feelings are not included in that.

Yes, they are included in the scope of legally cognizable harms. While the eggshell rules name references physical vulnerability, civil and criminal law address (and the eggshell rule applies to) emotional injuries, as well.

> Experiencing an emotion is not damage.

Torts like those of intentional and negligent infliction of emotional distress demonstrate the falsitt of this generalization of the law, as does the “suffering” part of “pain and suffering” damages in other torts.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#403

Post by catacombs »

CM30 wrote: post #59

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place True. There's definitely an elitist undertone at Stack Overflow, and the voting system has a huge effect on that... > especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems…

>But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems to be a disdain towards newer members in general, not ones from any particular group. Trying to make this about minorities feels like a desperate attempt to fit in with the 'social justice' sphere, and to virtue signal to people on sites like Twitter.

Thank you for saying this. I'm all for welcoming people from all walks of life to the coding community. But who is SO to say these particular people have been demoralized when most of its users are anonymous.

Newbie coders asking stupid questions on SO and getting snarky answers -- mostly because they didn't take the five minutes to see if their question was already asked -- transcends race, sexual orientation, gender and nationality.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#404

Post by your-nanny »

singularity2001 wrote: post #240
Ajedi32 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same reason why HN has both up/down votes, and actual moderators.

And the reason is ... ? What's wrong with comments just being grayed out, collapsed and moved to the bottom if they are downvoted for being (too) stupid / trolling / fascist etc? Moderators could just have more voting power.

My guess is that your being grayed out us a response to your question. Either in cheek or earnest.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#405

Post by zbentley »

gonehome wrote: post #289
warent wrote: post #45

I've experienced a form of hostility in StackOverflow just recently--as in a couple of days ago. On a whim, I visited the website and answered a couple questions, something I'd never done before. I realized it was actually a lot of fun, so I started rapidly answering the all JavaScript questions I could as they were asked. Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to…

Yeah it's a weird mix of helpful content moderated by an irritating hall monitor like community wielding power and making changes nobody wants. I've been frustrated when trying to contribute - you'll have two people helping each other and then some third party comes in and declares it not valuable, incorrectly says something is a duplicate, or starts deleting things for arbitrary reasons. I just want the moderators t…

> I just want the moderators to go away and leave us alone, it also makes me think stack overflow is successful in spite of this - not because of it.

You can use the chat site, message them directly (if their contact information is listed) or anything else you like to help someone with a useless/duplicate/beginner/help-vampire-ey question. You just aren't allowed to do it inside the reputation system to mine these kinds of answers for karma, and aren't allowed to do it inside the wiki system so you don't pollute the results of searches.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#406

Post by bitL »

jsmeaton wrote: post #400
bitL wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had gazillion encounters when senior engineers/managers were unbelievably condescending, especially when they saw a capable competitor in you. The keyword is resilience, are you going to gain this virtue, or are you going to complain everywhere and cry on all available shoulders, and then once you get what you wanted, start backstabbing anyone that helped you to keep them down and forget about what put you there? I…

> If you really want something, work on it to the full extent of your own capabilities, get ready to be beaten from left and right and figure out how to move forward. Don't expect help from around you. This should not be an expectation of the world, and I'm sorry you've had the experiences you've had to see it as such. This is exactly what people are complaining about when they say tech is hostile. It's not just host…

Frankly, resilience is necessity. The better you are, the more you are eclipsing the others, the stronger averse reaction you get everywhere. People could be your best friends until you escape their crab bucket, then you are suddenly a well-known enemy and rumors start spreading. I am no longer going out of my way to help those people; I believe they deserve where they are as they chose to stay in the bucket of their own loathing. But I am not going to be nasty to them at all. Their kids still have potential, so those are treated without indifference.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#407

Post by brandonjm »

CM30 wrote: post #59

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place True. There's definitely an elitist undertone at Stack Overflow, and the voting system has a huge effect on that... > especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems…

> No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it

StackOverflow has names and profile pictures. Users can choose not to have their own photo or name but some do and provides some identifiability. Though I agree about your general point that the primary and most obvious issue is with new users feeling less welcome than specific groups of people.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#409

Post by 2muchcoffeeman »

AdeptusAquinas wrote: post #315
freeflight wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there’s no mechanism by which “people of color”, “women”, or “minorities” can even be identified That's a legit question: If people don't even know what gender you are/what color your skin is, can they actually be intentionally racist/sexist towards you? Which makes me wonder if the actual wrong turn we took was making social media as prevalent as it is today. 20 years ago people on the www were really careful abou…

> If people don't even know what gender you are/what color your skin is, can they actually be intentionally racist/sexist towards you? Not directly, but often indirectly since in such a situation it is common to assume you are a white male. That's a bit off-putting if you are not one, but you might put up with it rather than clarifying your gender/race if doing so opens you up to a risk of direct sexism/racism

I’m not even sure what to say to that.

Other people assuming you are like them and treating you the SAME as they would treat all the other SO members is literally the outcome we want isn’t it? We’re being treated equally.

But now people are being offended because they aren’t being treated differently based on information the other parties don’t have?

What?

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#410

Post by faitswulff »

legostormtroopr wrote: post #201

What the StackOverflow company fails to get is that their product is assholes and industrial level asshole production. Every question is moderated by volunteers, who have curated every high value question there. From an askers perspective, sure you may have asked 1 slightly off-topic question, but for a reviewer, that’s the 30th off-topic question today - and SO gamifies reviewing so you are encouraged to do so. I us…

Never thought of it this way, but it is a content moderation problem, isn't it? The human collateral for moderation / quality enforcement is just ferocious on the internet, whether it's porn, NSFL.
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