America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself • Hacker News Board

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#121

Post by watwut » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 6:49 PM UTC

zeveb wrote: post #89

justin66 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The short summary is that he actually does not believe that abortion should be punished by hanging as you suggest. An excerpt: It wasn't really my suggestion, it was a quote from a larger NYT article. Sorry, I should have sited it, but it hardly seems crucial to what I was saying: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/05/business/media/kevin-will... Evidently the decision to fire him was informed by more than a single il…

> Let's be honest, from the viewpoint of an Atlantic editor, hiring a guy who thinks it's a funny joke to make would have been as bad as hiring a guy who actually believes it. The Atlantic hired Ta-Nehisi Coates , who is far more extreme on the other side of things. It wouldn't have hurt to have someone to counterbalance him.

Ta-Nehisi Coates is not trolling. I cant recall a single trolling article from him. He is serious. And also, there was nothing that striked me as extreme in his articles. He is also remarkably not emotional in his writing - he does not go out of his way to elicit emotional response the way Williamson does.

Nor he is having serious argument, pardon joking, pardon serious, oh really just a joke but I kinda mean it in his writing.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#122

Post by bluthru » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 7:06 PM UTC

pknight wrote: post #116

bluthru wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>These are all modern economies They aren't the only modern economies. Demographics plays a role. >most of which operate immigration-friendly regimes Recent policy and current demographics are two different things. These are still homogenous countries for the most part, especially Iceland which is exceedingly safe. Where demographics have shifted drastically away from the native population, the quality of life has re…

I'm not advancing the claim that high levels of diversity bring about happiness, I'm scrutinizing the belief that populations are happier because they get to be homogeneous in composition. It's been my observation that the people who push back against the idea of diversity the most tend to be quite miserable even when living in homogeneous communities.

>I'm scrutinizing the belief that populations are happier because they get to be homogeneous in composition.

Read Robert Putnam. People love a sense of belonging and it's embedded in our genes.

http://time.com/5095903/genetic-similarities-friends-study/

http://www.bu.edu/sph/2017/04/07/married-couples-with-common...

>It's been my observation that the people who push back against the idea of diversity the most tend to be quite miserable even when living in homogeneous communities.

There can definitely be miserable people who are looking for a scapegoat. It also takes a certain level of desperation to be vocal about it today because it's so taboo.

On the other hand there are people like me: anonymous, have traveled the world, lived in rural areas and cities, have a masters from a top 10, have a good job, etc. who look at the data and go: "Oh, the data is indicating that this recent configuration of humans isn't as good as it could be." You only have to go back 2-3 generations for homogeneity to be the overwhelming norm--were they all miserable?

Portraying people who are against diversity as ignorant or miserable doesn't disprove the fact that if you take a homogenous, high-performing population and flood it with diverse, lower-IQ, culturally-incomptable, more violent, less-productive people the nation will become worse.

Simple question: would Europe be better or worse today if there were only Europeans in it?

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#123

Post by kadenshep » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 7:49 PM UTC

throwaway1894 wrote: post #113

kadenshep wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Depending on the power brokers you subscribe to, that could mean a variety of things. It's usage and definition is well understood when used by members of a certain political faction in the U.S. It's not a mystery. Exact same thing when these specific people use "SJW" as a pejorative.

If someone identified as a "SJW" is causing friction between groups by trying to implement their beliefs, it seems only natural the group feeling aggressed against would use that term pejoratively. What makes either side's beliefs 'correct' and above reproach?

>What makes either side's beliefs 'correct' and above reproach?

Elementary philosophy backed by practical history and experience?

>it seems only natural the group feeling aggressed against

Yes because disavowing racism, sexism, and genocide is "aggressive."

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#124

Post by strictnein » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 8:51 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #59

strictnein wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're saying would make sense if he was there for three years, as opposed to, what, three days?

It's still not really "intolerant" to choose not to elevate a particular viewpoint. People saying Williamson shouldn't be allowed to publish anything anywhere are obviously being intolerant. People saying they'd rather not subscribe to a publication that pays him to expound on vile views? Meh.

The Twitter mob that got him fired != the Atlantic's subscriber base.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#125

Post by exelius » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 9:20 PM UTC

croon wrote: post #49

exelius wrote: post #38

I agree with this sentiment, with some caveats. I think Americans are totally done with identity politics based on race, gender, religion, sexuality, etc. We’ve had those arguments and the battle lines were drawn, but at the end of the day we all just live our lives. There seems to have developed somewhat of a “gentleman’s agreement” in most public spaces (explicitly political forums like protests notwithstanding) al…

> A classic example is sexual harassment in the workplace: women are justifiably upset by it, but men are also upset at the blowback. Fact is, it’s pretty easy for a man to be threatening to a woman without realizing he is — most men don’t understand how much the sheer size/strength difference intimidates most women when emotions get heated. Navigating this environment takes empathy from both sides and is something t…

It’s less “meeting in the middle” and more “agreeing not to bring any of that stuff up in public because we both have better things to do than have the same tired argument again”. At a certain point you have to put ideals aside and meet other people as human beings. Sure, you disagree on things, but if you want progress you’ve gotta start looking for the things that make us alike. If you want to understand the differences, there’s a time and a place for that, but it’s not in the day-to-day. Go to a seminar or read a book for that.

I do think the real prejudice — incapable of seeing other races / religions / sexualities as equals — is getting pushed to the fringes. Basically, if you’re truly prejudiced, the above “gentleman’s agreement” is broken. When that happens, you’re no longer seen as a gentleman but as a savage. See also the public reaction to the neo nazis in Charlottesville (confirmation bias attribution errors notwithstanding)

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#126

Post by croon » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 9:42 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #119

ModernMech wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people talk about religious tolerance in the US as an issue, they usually are referring to letting white evangelicals get their way politically and culturally. For instance, I know many people who feel their religious liberty was infringed when gay marriage was legalized, but also voted for a guy who called for the "complete and total shutdown of Muslims entering the US". It's not about religious liberty as a co…

> When people talk about religious tolerance in the US as an issue, they usually are referring to letting white evangelicals get their way politically and culturally. It's more that people are concerned that they will have to be closeted in polite society. I think there's anecdotal evidence to support that concern. See the recent New Yorker piece about Chic-Fil-A "infiltrating" NYC. Infiltrating it with what? Sandwic…

> It's more that people are concerned that they will have to be closeted in polite society. I think there's anecdotal evidence to support that concern. See the recent New Yorker piece about Chic-Fil-A "infiltrating" NYC. Infiltrating it with what? Sandwiches? No, it's about the conservative Christian owners setting up shop in NYC.

> On June 16, 2012, while on the syndicated radio talk show, The Ken Coleman Show, Chick-fil-A president and chief operating officer (COO) Dan Cathy stated:

>I think we are inviting God's judgment on our nation when we shake our fist at Him and say, "We know better than you as to what constitutes a marriage". I pray God's mercy on our generation that has such a prideful, arrogant attitude to think that we have the audacity to define what marriage is about.[1]

You use the word "closeted" for having to keep mum about your (not you specifically) belief that people (based on their sexuality) should be allowed less rights than you. I frankly find that remarkably bold.

Sure, Chic-fil-A stopped funding most of those organizations after the "incident", and I'm sure people like their food, but I also don't think an editorial about it is out of order.

If that is indeed "conservative Christianity", then as a Christian: I'll just say that it's some times old testament, when it fits, and very rarely if ever, new testament.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick-fil-A_same-sex_marriage_...

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#127

Post by humanrebar » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 9:51 PM UTC

croon wrote: post #126

humanrebar wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When people talk about religious tolerance in the US as an issue, they usually are referring to letting white evangelicals get their way politically and culturally. It's more that people are concerned that they will have to be closeted in polite society. I think there's anecdotal evidence to support that concern. See the recent New Yorker piece about Chic-Fil-A "infiltrating" NYC. Infiltrating it with what? Sandwic…

> It's more that people are concerned that they will have to be closeted in polite society. I think there's anecdotal evidence to support that concern. See the recent New Yorker piece about Chic-Fil-A "infiltrating" NYC. Infiltrating it with what? Sandwiches? No, it's about the conservative Christian owners setting up shop in NYC. > On June 16, 2012, while on the syndicated radio talk show, The Ken Coleman Show, Chic…

Calling attention to political disagreement is fine. Using language if hatred is not. I presume, as a Christian, you would rather people learn to forgive and reconcile instead of judge and condemn.

The concern of Christians is that the goal here isn't to get Chic-Fil-A to change its behavior or speech but to brand it and people in its tribe as an Enemy and as evil.

It's mainstream Christianity to consider extramarital sex as sinful. Is that hatred? No. Does it make people defensive? Sure. How do we resolve that tension? Well, hating Christians and ostracising them won't solve the problem. Unless the problem is that there are too many "out" Christians.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#128

Post by pknight » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 10:22 PM UTC

bluthru wrote: post #122

pknight wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not advancing the claim that high levels of diversity bring about happiness, I'm scrutinizing the belief that populations are happier because they get to be homogeneous in composition. It's been my observation that the people who push back against the idea of diversity the most tend to be quite miserable even when living in homogeneous communities.

>I'm scrutinizing the belief that populations are happier because they get to be homogeneous in composition. Read Robert Putnam. People love a sense of belonging and it's embedded in our genes. http://time.com/5095903/genetic-similarities-friends-study/ http://www.bu.edu/sph/2017/04/07/married-couples-with-common... >It's been my observation that the people who push back against the idea of diversity the most tend to…

> It also takes a certain level of desperation to be vocal about it today because it's so taboo.

It's not taboo though is it. People go on and on about immigration and there are entire media outfits that are devoted to casting foreigners as threats while promoting the idea that 'these people are not as good natives, have lower IQ, are more violent and less productive', which is typically based on outright lies and prejudice. Beliefs about immigrants are entirely warped to cater to a smaller subset of the population which has a hard time dealing with change while they grip with tremendous entitlement to mythical constructions of the past.

> You only have to go back 2-3 generations for homogeneity to be the overwhelming norm

A very curious statement. Europe's history is one characterised by migration and constant changes in demographics. There have always been groups of people at odds with one another because they were different enough to be seen as a threat. Every generation has struggled accepting new groups of people with both good and bad results.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#129

Post by humanrebar » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 11:26 PM UTC

sgift wrote: post #78

mieseratte wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not interested because they want an echo-chamber. This is just intolerance, aka bigotry, with extra steps. It wasn't as if the man's writings were just panned. It was a typical social justice morality crusade.

> This is just intolerance, aka bigotry, with extra steps. Here we have the classic case of interpreting a definition so loose that it gets useless. Everyone is intolerant of something. I'm intolerant of murderers, so by that textbook definition I'm a bigot, but then everyone would be a bigot and we end up with a synonym for "human" - Is that helpful in a discussion?

You are equating being pro-life and unconventionally anti-execution with being a murderer.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#130

Post by humanrebar » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 11:28 PM UTC

dandersh wrote: post #41

humanrebar wrote: post #4

> What explains the gulf between most Americans’ hopeful outlook on areas and institutions they know directly and their despair about the country they know only through the news? In their anthropological foray, they notice that people generally get along with local people in local contexts. That's certainly true. A lot of the acrimony, tribalism, and fear comes from the growing divisiveness of American culture at lar…

This post engages in the myth that there exists an America homogenous enough that all of it can suitably be represented by a single media outlet...and when it isn't something nefarious (in this case leftist elitism) is at work. The problem isn't The Atlantic or the National Review providing specific, sometimes narrow views. The problem is the lack of intellectual curiosity, confirmation bias, and tribalism engaged in…

I don't need The Atlantic to be all things to all people. I'm just pointing out that it's rich to fire Williamson the way they did and then send out a fact-finding mission to discover what people like Williamson think.