America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself • Hacker News Board

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#81

Post by collyw » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:28 PM UTC

mattzito wrote: post #26

creaghpatr wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But there needs to be a recognition and acceptance of the fact that the identity of a community needs to change and evolve... No, there doesn't 'need'

Are you suggesting that communities can stay frozen in time, unchanging forever? Even the Amish have adopted cell phones and automobiles, and the Satmars in NYC are huge WhatsApp users. Any community that thinks they can remain totally insular is both fooling itself and doomed to failure.

Mobile phones don't define a culture. Almost every culture on the planet has adopted them now.

Attitudes and shared behaviors do.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#82

Post by weberc2 » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:30 PM UTC

NLips wrote: post #52

mieseratte wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is a textbook definition of bigotry. They're intolerant of, thus do not want to read, his views.

Uninterested != intolerant You can scream your opinion on topic X all day long, but no one has to listen. That doesn't make them intolerant.

He was employed for what, a week? How did The Atlantic's readership find him uninteresting in that amount of time? And anyway, his hiring made quite an uproar with many of the Atlantic's readership, suggesting they were _very_ interested, but also _very_ intolerant to the end that he was fired. The "uninterested" line doesn't float.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#83

Post by bluthru » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:31 PM UTC

pknight wrote: post #74

bluthru wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/16/these-are-the-top-10-happies... White countries with low diversity.

These are all modern economies, most of which operate immigration-friendly regimes. Sweden, Netherlands, Switzerland, Iceland, Denmark, Norway and Finland are all signed up to freedom of movement, which doesn't discriminate on the basis of religion, ethnicity or place of birth, provided you are a citizen in the EEA or Switzerland, or if you are married to such a citizen. Anyway, the point is not that diversity cultiv…

>These are all modern economies

They aren't the only modern economies. Demographics plays a role.

>most of which operate immigration-friendly regimes

Recent policy and current demographics are two different things. These are still homogenous countries for the most part, especially Iceland which is exceedingly safe. Where demographics have shifted drastically away from the native population, the quality of life has reduced. (Look at Malmo, for example.)

>That happiness boost is nowhere to be seen when looking at real world examples.

http://archive.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/...

Here's a list of countries ranked by diversity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_et...

Doesn't look like a happy list.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#84

Post by justin66 » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:33 PM UTC

astine wrote: post #63

justin66 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No idea what he has to say for himself in the wsj since it's behind a paywall, but I did google him. I wasn't familiar with any of this but if this is accurate: It was Mr. Williamson’s hard-line stance on abortion — namely, that it should be treated as premeditated homicide and punished accordingly, perhaps by hanging — that generated the initial controversy over his hiring. Well, you know, his time at The Atlantic w…

If someone links you to article, you can generally get through the paywall, so here is Williamson's own take on his situation: https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-the-twitter-mob-came-for-m... The short summary is that he actually does not believe that abortion should be punished by hanging as you suggest. An excerpt: "The purported reason for our “parting ways,” as Mr. Goldberg put it in his announcement, had nothing…

> The short summary is that he actually does not believe that abortion should be punished by hanging as you suggest. An excerpt:

It wasn't really my suggestion, it was a quote from a larger NYT article. Sorry, I should have sited it, but it hardly seems crucial to what I was saying: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/05/business/media/kevin-will...

Evidently the decision to fire him was informed by more than a single ill-considered statement. (Of course it was.) Let's be honest, from the viewpoint of an Atlantic editor, hiring a guy who thinks it's a funny joke to make would have been as bad as hiring a guy who actually believes it. The problem appears to be that The Atlantic did not do proper due diligence before hiring. That is bad for everyone concerned.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#85

Post by mattzito » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:34 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #81

mattzito wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that communities can stay frozen in time, unchanging forever? Even the Amish have adopted cell phones and automobiles, and the Satmars in NYC are huge WhatsApp users. Any community that thinks they can remain totally insular is both fooling itself and doomed to failure.

Mobile phones don't define a culture. Almost every culture on the planet has adopted them now. Attitudes and shared behaviors do.

When your culture is defined around ideas that technology has a negative effect on your attitudes and shared behaviors, things like mobile phones are powerful signifiers.

My point is that even highly insular cultures with strict restrictions about modernity and technology recognize that their beliefs and attitudes need to adapt with the times in certain ways.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#86

Post by stordoff » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:35 PM UTC

bluthru wrote: post #62

maroonblazer wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It can, but you're swimming against nature. Do you think the Japanese people would be happier if Japan was minority Japanese? Japan - and many (most?) other countries - don't share the contingencies of America's founding. If I emigrate to Finland do I become, and am I seen by Fins as, Finnish? Not really. But a Fin moving to the U.S. can become an American and perceived by the rest of us as American. Civilization i…

>Japan - and many (most?) other countries - don't share the contingencies of America's founding. I'm not sure you want to use America's founding as an argument: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUhBdicX0AAGNZ5.jpg >If I emigrate to Finland do I become, and am I seen by Fins as, Finnish? Not really. People want to destroy this notion. It has already taken place for the British. https://youtu.be/flRELYUqmUE?t=3m55s >civiliz…

> People want to destroy this notion. It has already taken place for the British.

Brit here. What are you even talking about?

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#87

Post by kadenshep » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:37 PM UTC

montyf wrote: post #58

humanrebar wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because I'm not entirely certain that we can eliminate tribalism. It's fair to say tribalism has always been around. And from that perspective, the current tribalism, including left-wing identity politics, is extremely reactionary. A few things are, if not new, at least notable in this case: * These people aren't historically outsiders, they're "heartland" Americans. * The cultural narrative hasn't caught up to the…

You're absolutely right, but HN users don't realize that most of America exists outside of their ideological bubble. > For example, if child of meth heads grows up to be president, he's yet another privileged white president, not an outsider who overcame adversity. It's racism and nothing else. Thing is, it's OK to be racist nowadays, as long as you're a liberal. Edit: to the guy quoting the dictionary below me, this…

>Thing is, it's OK to be racist nowadays, as long as you're a liberal.

Citation needed, but I know you're just lying. The "left" in the U.S. has been the only political wing to consistently call out and punish its own members for unacceptable behavior. Meanwhile on the right, they gladly promote and endorse members who engage in racism, sexual assault, pedophilia, and ignoring people's rights. All while actively taking nearly every wrong perspective/action on basically any subject ranging from the economy to diplomacy.

Happy reading! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_sex_...

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#88

Post by justin66 » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:38 PM UTC

stevenwoo wrote: post #69

justin66 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No idea what he has to say for himself in the wsj since it's behind a paywall, but I did google him. I wasn't familiar with any of this but if this is accurate: It was Mr. Williamson’s hard-line stance on abortion — namely, that it should be treated as premeditated homicide and punished accordingly, perhaps by hanging — that generated the initial controversy over his hiring. Well, you know, his time at The Atlantic w…

It was an appalling failure to investigate his background by the man who hired him, critics rightly pointed our Williamson's equivalency of murder and abortion - which has led to many not too bright folks to actually murdering abortion providers.

Indeed. I don't have the slightest sympathy for his views but hiring an opinion writer and immediately firing him because you've discovered his opinion and his writing is quite ridiculous.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#89

Post by zeveb » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:41 PM UTC

justin66 wrote: post #84

astine wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone links you to article, you can generally get through the paywall, so here is Williamson's own take on his situation: https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-the-twitter-mob-came-for-m... The short summary is that he actually does not believe that abortion should be punished by hanging as you suggest. An excerpt: "The purported reason for our “parting ways,” as Mr. Goldberg put it in his announcement, had nothing…

> The short summary is that he actually does not believe that abortion should be punished by hanging as you suggest. An excerpt: It wasn't really my suggestion, it was a quote from a larger NYT article. Sorry, I should have sited it, but it hardly seems crucial to what I was saying: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/05/business/media/kevin-will... Evidently the decision to fire him was informed by more than a single il…

> Let's be honest, from the viewpoint of an Atlantic editor, hiring a guy who thinks it's a funny joke to make would have been as bad as hiring a guy who actually believes it.

The Atlantic hired Ta-Nehisi Coates, who is far more extreme on the other side of things. It wouldn't have hurt to have someone to counterbalance him.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#90

Post by dandersh » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:46 PM UTC

chongli wrote: post #42

WhompingWindows wrote: post #35

Of course this is true. If anyone is naive enough to believe America is a hellish wasteland of terrible politics, and that that transfers to overall Quality of Life metrics for society as a whole, they might be surprised by this. Any honest look at data on employment, QoL, services available for free or very cheaply in the lives of the average citizen, there are many reasons for optimism. Personally, I try to cut fro…

I look at the opioid epidemic as a symptom, not the problem itself. The broader problem is globalization and the local inequalities it's producing. The Heartland of the United States is being hollowed out and turned into a desolate wasteland, economically speaking. The steady advances in economic productivity are accruing to an ever-shrinking proportion of the population. The media-political circus should also be tak…

Raising the specter of globalization ultimately is just hand-waving the problem away. For example, when are we determining that globalization began? If we claim in the 1990's than how does that explain a similar hollowing out effect suffered by urban black America in the previous decades? If we decide to go back to Columbus, well that certainly isn't going to explain anything.

Unfortunately many explanations look outward or cast blame on shadowy groups ("The Elites") and refuse to look at decisions made by Americans themselves. There is no consideration of voting against interests in favor of culture war issues. No discussion of the movement away from organized labor and activism. Refusal to evaluate the consequences of an "Every Day Low Price" consumerism that demands the lowest cost of products.

I'm not trying to absolve globalization of responsibility, rather I'm trying to say that it's not helpful to point the finger at it and refuse to look deeper.