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America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

theatlantic.com

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Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#41

Post by dandersh »

humanrebar wrote: post #4

> What explains the gulf between most Americans’ hopeful outlook on areas and institutions they know directly and their despair about the country they know only through the news? In their anthropological foray, they notice that people generally get along with local people in local contexts. That's certainly true. A lot of the acrimony, tribalism, and fear comes from the growing divisiveness of American culture at lar…

This post engages in the myth that there exists an America homogenous enough that all of it can suitably be represented by a single media outlet...and when it isn't something nefarious (in this case leftist elitism) is at work.

The problem isn't The Atlantic or the National Review providing specific, sometimes narrow views. The problem is the lack of intellectual curiosity, confirmation bias, and tribalism engaged in by many political consumers.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#42

Post by chongli »

WhompingWindows wrote: post #35

Of course this is true. If anyone is naive enough to believe America is a hellish wasteland of terrible politics, and that that transfers to overall Quality of Life metrics for society as a whole, they might be surprised by this. Any honest look at data on employment, QoL, services available for free or very cheaply in the lives of the average citizen, there are many reasons for optimism. Personally, I try to cut fro…

I look at the opioid epidemic as a symptom, not the problem itself. The broader problem is globalization and the local inequalities it's producing. The Heartland of the United States is being hollowed out and turned into a desolate wasteland, economically speaking. The steady advances in economic productivity are accruing to an ever-shrinking proportion of the population.

The media-political circus should also be taken seriously as a problem because it distracts people from focusing on the real issues. The recent focus on privacy on Facebook is a good example of that. The real problem with Facebook is that it's designed to be addictive, that it's making people depressed and angry, and that it's politically polarizing people who ought to have common interests.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#43

Post by throwaway21333 »

bilbo0s wrote: post #18
humanrebar wrote: post #4

> What explains the gulf between most Americans’ hopeful outlook on areas and institutions they know directly and their despair about the country they know only through the news? In their anthropological foray, they notice that people generally get along with local people in local contexts. That's certainly true. A lot of the acrimony, tribalism, and fear comes from the growing divisiveness of American culture at lar…

"...So when you live in these places and you see hatred for people like you, how are you supposed to be optimistic and excited about the prospects for your children and grandchildren?..." Yeah... but that's been going on forever. You see that with Muslims recently. We've seen that with hispanics. Further back, of course, we've been seeing it with blacks and native americans for a long time. That will ALWAYS happen. T…

How would eliminating the tribalism subroutine benefit the species? Is a homogeneous global population the most resilient?

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#44

Post by justin66 »

humanrebar wrote: post #4

> What explains the gulf between most Americans’ hopeful outlook on areas and institutions they know directly and their despair about the country they know only through the news? In their anthropological foray, they notice that people generally get along with local people in local contexts. That's certainly true. A lot of the acrimony, tribalism, and fear comes from the growing divisiveness of American culture at lar…

No idea what he has to say for himself in the wsj since it's behind a paywall, but I did google him. I wasn't familiar with any of this but if this is accurate:

It was Mr. Williamson’s hard-line stance on abortion — namely, that it should be treated as premeditated homicide and punished accordingly, perhaps by hanging — that generated the initial controversy over his hiring.

Well, you know, his time at The Atlantic wasn't destined to end well. Their readers aren't going to allow them to turn into Newsmax.

It's mostly distressing that a lunatic like that can get the time of day, let alone a paying job as an opinion writer. Speaking of "tribalism," I don't think his views are likely representative of his own "tribe." It's just that the discourse has degraded to the point where plenty of people get off on hearing something they think will offend the right people.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#45

Post by ManFromUranus »

exelius wrote: post #38

I agree with this sentiment, with some caveats. I think Americans are totally done with identity politics based on race, gender, religion, sexuality, etc. We’ve had those arguments and the battle lines were drawn, but at the end of the day we all just live our lives. There seems to have developed somewhat of a “gentleman’s agreement” in most public spaces (explicitly political forums like protests notwithstanding) al…

>I think Americans are totally done with identity politics based on race, gender, religion, sexuality

I don't see that happening at all, that would be nice, but that's not the general direction. I think things are getting worse as far as that's concerned. Society is polarizing and separating into different groups. At this point it is almost impossible to talk to the "other side" about certain issues. There is MASSIVE distrust of the government and authority that is getting increasing day by day. I think America is becoming a polarized, low-trust society with no common interests and the future looks like regional secession to me. Sub-state entities seceding from other states, states seceding from the greater US etc.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#46

Post by creaghpatr »

mattzito wrote: post #26
creaghpatr wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But there needs to be a recognition and acceptance of the fact that the identity of a community needs to change and evolve... No, there doesn't 'need'

Are you suggesting that communities can stay frozen in time, unchanging forever? Even the Amish have adopted cell phones and automobiles, and the Satmars in NYC are huge WhatsApp users. Any community that thinks they can remain totally insular is both fooling itself and doomed to failure.

>Are you suggesting that communities can stay frozen in time, unchanging forever?

No

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#47

Post by mieseratte »

maxerickson wrote: post #39
brandonmenc wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for using the correct definition of "bigotry." The general population seems to confuse "bigot" only with "racist" or "sexist," for some reason.

They didn't though. Williamson wasn't fired because the Atlantic readers hate white conservative opinion writers, he was fired because Atlantic readers aren't very interested in his particular views.

Which is a textbook definition of bigotry. They're intolerant of, thus do not want to read, his views.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#48

Post by AckSyn »

throwaway21333 wrote: post #43
bilbo0s wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...So when you live in these places and you see hatred for people like you, how are you supposed to be optimistic and excited about the prospects for your children and grandchildren?..." Yeah... but that's been going on forever. You see that with Muslims recently. We've seen that with hispanics. Further back, of course, we've been seeing it with blacks and native americans for a long time. That will ALWAYS happen. T…

How would eliminating the tribalism subroutine benefit the species? Is a homogeneous global population the most resilient?

monocultures tend to be best for societies, so if the global population were a monoculture, the homogenous nature of one would be beneficial.

But since that's an impossibility currently, leaving each nation to be its own monoculture is best.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#49

Post by croon »

exelius wrote: post #38

I agree with this sentiment, with some caveats. I think Americans are totally done with identity politics based on race, gender, religion, sexuality, etc. We’ve had those arguments and the battle lines were drawn, but at the end of the day we all just live our lives. There seems to have developed somewhat of a “gentleman’s agreement” in most public spaces (explicitly political forums like protests notwithstanding) al…

> A classic example is sexual harassment in the workplace: women are justifiably upset by it, but men are also upset at the blowback. Fact is, it’s pretty easy for a man to be threatening to a woman without realizing he is — most men don’t understand how much the sheer size/strength difference intimidates most women when emotions get heated. Navigating this environment takes empathy from both sides and is something that has to be established on a person-to-person basis.

That might be true in some edge/fringe cases, but your characterization as an equal push-pull here is wildly misleading. There is a change happening, very much for the better, but that is clearly in one direction, and not rooted in "both sides".

> There seems to have developed somewhat of a “gentleman’s agreement” in most public spaces (explicitly political forums like protests notwithstanding) along be lines of “don’t provoke me for my religious beliefs and I won’t provoke you for your homosexuality”.

Given the previous quote, are the "religious beliefs" in this case relating to sexuality? In that case, one thing is not like the other.

You can (and I personally have) grow out of judging people based on their sexuality, grounded in your inherited religion. You can however not grow out of your sexuality. One has to be accepted, religious prejudices (IMHO) don't.

"Meeting in the middle" doesn't work, if the middle is way off to the side of where rationality lives. I don't think we can judge thinks purely objectively, but trying on different optics at least helps to inform our argument, whatever that is. This is the goal I hope we reach.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#50

Post by [deleted] »

exelius wrote: post #38

I agree with this sentiment, with some caveats. I think Americans are totally done with identity politics based on race, gender, religion, sexuality, etc. We’ve had those arguments and the battle lines were drawn, but at the end of the day we all just live our lives. There seems to have developed somewhat of a “gentleman’s agreement” in most public spaces (explicitly political forums like protests notwithstanding) al…

[deleted]
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