Startup School Beijing • Hacker News Board

Re: Startup School Beijing

#111

Post by justicezyx » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 2:29 PM UTC

api wrote: post #43

nieksand wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems very fashionable to pull out moral equivalency every time China's autocracy and misbehavior is mentioned. Simple experiment: 1. Walk down Pennsylvania Avenue with a sign that says "Trump is a pussy grabber who should be impeached". 2. Go to Tiananmen Square and hold up a poster-sized picture from the 1989 massacre. See how equivalent the governments are then. (As an aside... if I was employed by the Chinese…

You can make an exact comparison. Not too terribly long ago I saw protests holding up poster sized pictures of prisoner abuse from Abu Gharib and Guantanamo Bay, which is roughly like holding up a poster-sized picture from the 1989 massacre. Nothing happened to these people in spite of the fact that these pictures are deeply embarrassing to the US government and intensely inflammatory in regions of the world where we…

> the law applies objectively to everyone: crooks, politicians, and yes even do-gooders

You started by saying some entities are left unpunished. Then come to this conclusion.

Re: Startup School Beijing

#112

Post by justicezyx » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 2:31 PM UTC

erikb wrote: post #83

forkerenok wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would assume YC has plenty of "wives" and "husbands" (read network connections) in China to vouch for them in front of CCP leaders. Edit: Besides, regardless of connections, I think, the deal where YC provides easy U.S. market entry for Chinese startups for a share in the company is pretty attractive to both sides.

Yes, that's what they think if they offer that. And my additional point was that what westerners consider "network connections" you can't have with Chinese people if you are not of Chinese heritage nor married to a Chinese wife. Even if you are a woman and married to a Chinese husband it might not be enough, because he won't listen to you in business related issues. Also hiring Chinese consultants to take care of the…

> if you are not of Chinese heritage nor married to a Chinese wife

OK, I think you assume there is no case of Chinese men and non-Chinese women marriage, or same-gender marriage.

That appears rather subtle but offensive bias.

Re: Startup School Beijing

#113

Post by ObnoxiousProxy » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 2:34 PM UTC

benjaminsuch wrote: post #95

Presquare wrote: post #64

Very exciting news! I hope YC will help Chinese startups become global. My biggest problem with Silicon Valley is its ideological uniformity and the increasing willingness to use their companies/products as vehicles to push their ideologies. China would be in an excellent position to address the part of the Western market that is increasingly alienated by this push. They can build SV tech clones for the local market,…

I hope YC will help Chinese startups become global. Why would you want that? As long as the chinese goverment prevent foreign companies to buy chinese companies no one should be happy about chinese startups going global. The chinese goverment is highly corrupt and only supports actions which benefits the chinese. That's why there are so many "joint ventures".

I agree with the corrupt part, but it's interesting that you say "the chinese government...only supports actions which benefits the chinese" as if it's a horrible thing. Every government does what is best for their country... Being upset about it is like getting mad at fire for being hot.

Re: Startup School Beijing

#114

Post by TAForObvReasons » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 2:40 PM UTC

opportune wrote: post #31

SuperNinKenDo wrote: post #24

I'm disappointed to know that YC has drank the cool-aid on China. Once you invest significantly in China, you quickly find yourselves beholden to the whims of the CCP. And for what? Such privileges as building their dystopian techno-autocracy for them? I don't see any signs in this statement that you are going into this with your eyes open to either the difficulties this will cause down the line, nor the morally "que…

Agreed, investing in China is the "invading Russia" of the tech world. Yes, China is a huge market and a rapidly growing economy, which makes investing there an extremely appetizing prospect. However, it seems very difficult for non-chinese to be able to hold onto their investments in China without their business being ripped off (e.g. having the business model copied by a more Chinese company that gets favorable gov…

> you have to consider the ethics of what you're enabling

Keep in mind, YC took money from Yuri Milner in 2011 even though people knew at the time that there were connections to Russian oligarchs [1] and funded startups that promulgated junkware installers [2] among other things. On the "doing the right thing" vs "making more money" spectrum, YC is firmly on the side of "making more money", ethics be damned.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3143894 the PG comment and the first few responses contextualize this well.

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5092711 a discussion about InstallMonetizer

Re: Startup School Beijing

#115

Post by mistermann » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 2:47 PM UTC

opportune wrote: post #31

SuperNinKenDo wrote: post #24

I'm disappointed to know that YC has drank the cool-aid on China. Once you invest significantly in China, you quickly find yourselves beholden to the whims of the CCP. And for what? Such privileges as building their dystopian techno-autocracy for them? I don't see any signs in this statement that you are going into this with your eyes open to either the difficulties this will cause down the line, nor the morally "que…

Agreed, investing in China is the "invading Russia" of the tech world. Yes, China is a huge market and a rapidly growing economy, which makes investing there an extremely appetizing prospect. However, it seems very difficult for non-chinese to be able to hold onto their investments in China without their business being ripped off (e.g. having the business model copied by a more Chinese company that gets favorable gov…

> Agreed, investing in China is the "invading Russia" of the tech world.

I'd go even one step further, it is more like partnering with Germany, except in this version of the story Germany might be successful in its quest to take over the world, because make no mistake, China is coming for your market, it's only a matter of time.

It is encouraging that more and more people are finally starting to put the pieces of this puzzle together, shame it is far too little and far too late.

Re: Startup School Beijing

#116

Post by dis-sys » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 2:49 PM UTC

freeone3000 wrote: post #81

dis-sys wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> America's respect for individual liberty and the rule of law has eroded over the years, but it is still considerably stronger than what's found in China. individual liberty such as those mass shootings protected by the constitution? if you do believe there is real democracy in your country, maybe you can talk to your democratically elected local representatives and make some _real changes_ in that aspect first? tal…

A lot of people believe that private ownership of guns is an important individual right - a majority in some areas. This is democracy, even when it produces outcomes I disagree with.

yet the same people are jumping up and down lecturing Chinese about how bad is the CCP. I thought it is up to them to judge that.

Re: Startup School Beijing

#117

Post by erikb » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 2:52 PM UTC

justicezyx wrote: post #112

erikb wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's what they think if they offer that. And my additional point was that what westerners consider "network connections" you can't have with Chinese people if you are not of Chinese heritage nor married to a Chinese wife. Even if you are a woman and married to a Chinese husband it might not be enough, because he won't listen to you in business related issues. Also hiring Chinese consultants to take care of the…

> if you are not of Chinese heritage nor married to a Chinese wife OK, I think you assume there is no case of Chinese men and non-Chinese women marriage, or same-gender marriage. That appears rather subtle but offensive bias.

Just the next sentence goes like this:

> Even if you are a woman and married to a Chinese husband it might not be enough, because he won't listen to you in business related issues.

And yes, facts can be offensive. Doesn't make them less factual.

Re: Startup School Beijing

#118

Post by derEitel » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:02 PM UTC

realusername wrote: post #102

eksemplar wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is the future though. As scary as that is, it’s still reasonable to invest in Chinese tech, at least if your plan is to make money. I don’t think westerners in general realize how advanced China is becoming. Being from Europe, visiting China is like stepping into a sci-fI novel. Not a happy one, mind you, but it’s becoming impossible to ignore.

> China is the future though. As scary as that is, it’s still reasonable to invest in Chinese tech, at least if your plan is to make money. I don't have a lot of examples of successful western companies operating in China, they all seems to be blocked of at some point because of ""regulations"".

Many car manufacturers (incl. Mercedes, BMW) and fashion brands (incl. H&M, Nike)

Re: Startup School Beijing

#119

Post by mistermann » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:10 PM UTC

erikb wrote: post #28

This will fail so much. If you ever had anything to do with China you know there's no path in. Especially under Xi. Even in the old lang sine, when China was (more) open to the West it was still hard. Think about getting serious stuff stolen, threatened by people with sticks etc. Then you sue someone and the judge simply decides in favor of the Chinese party, no matter what they did. The only option I can see is if y…

Think of it this way: eventually, China will figure out and dominate this market like any other they've tackled. So if you stay in the US, you're just delaying the inevitable. This way, you're in on it, you're buying favor in a sense - in the new world order, having an pre-existing relationship with the 900 pound gorilla might come in handy.

Re: Startup School Beijing

#120

Post by dmoy » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 3:16 PM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #41

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And even if you are successful, you have to consider the ethics of what you're enabling..." This is the thing I don't understand. Ten years ago, you could make a case that simply by making stuff people want, the world would become more connected, all sorts of goodness will happen. You can no longer make that case. People are not idiots. They see both the good and bad that tech has brought. Technology companies are e…

>I must be missing something. YC is a really smart bunch of guys. Certainly they know what the hell they're getting into. It seems so very much. From my impression, SV people in China are not to run a new business, rather than to secure connections. See, they did not pair with a university with a genuine tech cred, nor they hold this school anywhere close to a tech hub, but in Beijing, and a university that is second…

Wait is the implication here that tsinghua uni has no tech cred?

I agree that parts of tsinghua are pretty chummy with the party, but trying to claim it has no tech cred seems a bit of a stretch. It's arguably in like the top 10 eng/comp sci unis in the entire world. Both QS and ARWU put it in top 10. (THE puts it in top 20)