America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself • Hacker News Board

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#21

Post by creaghpatr » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 1:19 PM UTC

mattzito wrote: post #11

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would immigrants move to where they're not wanted? Also, how is the desire to maintain a common identity in your small town racist? Many of our country's rural trends are a pushback against multiculturalism, which pushes the idea that there is no right or wrong way to live as long as you don't hurt other people. Common languages, religions, norms, customs, and beliefs simply don't matter. But how can a sense of c…

> how is the desire to maintain a common identity in your small town racist? On the face of it, no, of course, wanting to maintain a sense of community in your town is not inherently racist. But there needs to be a recognition and acceptance of the fact that the identity of a community needs to change and evolve, and people arriving from somewhere else can be part of that. I would also argue that: > Many of our count…

>But there needs to be a recognition and acceptance of the fact that the identity of a community needs to change and evolve...

No, there doesn't 'need'

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#22

Post by watwut » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 1:26 PM UTC

Density wrote: post #14

nl wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this pushback being met with cries of racism? Because it's often couched in explicitly racist terms. Shared values should matter more than the color of your skin, and values can (and often are) shared across cultures.

Stop calling people you don't understand racists. These rednecks hate all people who refuse to fit into their culture. They'll hate white NY or CA transplants just as much as they hate Mexicans. Unfortunately actual racism is picking up steam with these folks.

When was the exact year when "actual racism" disappeared?

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#23

Post by whatever_dude » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 1:32 PM UTC

ShadowFaxSam wrote: post #2

Its refreshing to read a hopeful and positive piece about the future of America. So much has been written of the state of the great divide between races, conservatives and liberals, heartland America and the coastal liberal cities, republican vs democrats. At least out of all this turmoil there is a sense of activism and involvement in politics I have not seen in years. >“If you want to create a great community, you…

Activism and involvement, yes, but born out of growing polarization.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#24

Post by ForRealsies » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 1:37 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #15

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When the desire to maintain a common identity is based on racial or ethnic identity... then that desire can be accurately described as racist or at best xenophobic. This would be true and understandable if immigration wasn't so incredibly skewed towards Mexicans, but it is skewed. There are over 11 million illegal immigrants in a country of 300 million, the majority of which are Mexican/Latino. That is an incredibl…

How many of the problems the US faces are genuinely caused by immigration, and how many would change if immigration ended? That's the crux of the matter. Factually, in the UK virtually none of our social and economic problems have been caused by immigration. When you look into the facts, unaffordable housing, a creaking health service, street violence, and job losses are all effects of policy, not specific groups of…

Part and parcel of living in a big city like London.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#25

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 1:38 PM UTC

ashleyn wrote: post #13

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would immigrants move to where they're not wanted? Also, how is the desire to maintain a common identity in your small town racist? Many of our country's rural trends are a pushback against multiculturalism, which pushes the idea that there is no right or wrong way to live as long as you don't hurt other people. Common languages, religions, norms, customs, and beliefs simply don't matter. But how can a sense of c…

For decades, America has embraced a civic nationalism over a European-style ethnic nationalism. This is that certain notions of freedom and responsibility, not blood and soil, were the real ties that bind. A sense of community can transcend religion and race, and this is what we should strive for.

[deleted]

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#26

Post by mattzito » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 1:40 PM UTC

creaghpatr wrote: post #21

mattzito wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how is the desire to maintain a common identity in your small town racist? On the face of it, no, of course, wanting to maintain a sense of community in your town is not inherently racist. But there needs to be a recognition and acceptance of the fact that the identity of a community needs to change and evolve, and people arriving from somewhere else can be part of that. I would also argue that: > Many of our count…

>But there needs to be a recognition and acceptance of the fact that the identity of a community needs to change and evolve... No, there doesn't 'need'

Are you suggesting that communities can stay frozen in time, unchanging forever?

Even the Amish have adopted cell phones and automobiles, and the Satmars in NYC are huge WhatsApp users.

Any community that thinks they can remain totally insular is both fooling itself and doomed to failure.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#27

Post by pknight » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 1:40 PM UTC

bluthru wrote: post #19

ashleyn wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For decades, America has embraced a civic nationalism over a European-style ethnic nationalism. This is that certain notions of freedom and responsibility, not blood and soil, were the real ties that bind. A sense of community can transcend religion and race, and this is what we should strive for.

"Decades" is a short amount of time and "embraced" obviously varies wildly. When the Immigration Act of 1965 was passed it was promised that "the ethnic makeup will not be upset". The American people never voted to be demographically displaced. (Why would they?) >A sense of community can transcend religion and race It can, but you're swimming against nature. Do you think the Japanese people would be happier if Japan…

> Do you think the Japanese people would be happier if Japan was minority Japanese?

The more interesting question is why are the Japanese so miserable, 53 other countries rank over Japan despite features that some say should promote happiness. You might even say that the hypothesis that social cohesion must be upheld by deterring ethnic influences in the pursuit of happier communities can't find a worse example in Japan.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#28

Post by humanrebar » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 1:42 PM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #18

humanrebar wrote: post #4

> What explains the gulf between most Americans’ hopeful outlook on areas and institutions they know directly and their despair about the country they know only through the news? In their anthropological foray, they notice that people generally get along with local people in local contexts. That's certainly true. A lot of the acrimony, tribalism, and fear comes from the growing divisiveness of American culture at lar…

"...So when you live in these places and you see hatred for people like you, how are you supposed to be optimistic and excited about the prospects for your children and grandchildren?..." Yeah... but that's been going on forever. You see that with Muslims recently. We've seen that with hispanics. Further back, of course, we've been seeing it with blacks and native americans for a long time. That will ALWAYS happen. T…

> Because I'm not entirely certain that we can eliminate tribalism.

It's fair to say tribalism has always been around. And from that perspective, the current tribalism, including left-wing identity politics, is extremely reactionary.

A few things are, if not new, at least notable in this case:

* These people aren't historically outsiders, they're "heartland" Americans.

* The cultural narrative hasn't caught up to the cultural reality yet. For example, if child of meth heads grows up to be president, he's yet another privileged white president, not an outsider who overcame adversity. "Multicultural" attitudes group him in with Warren Buffett.

* There's no language, even to describe white people short on privilege. There are certainly slurs, but nothing you'd put on a questionnaire.

* The general direction of American culture has been to include more and more, however slowly. This is certainly a regression in that respect. And it seems to be accompanied by an abandonment of the ideal of inclusion qua inclusion. Instead, we seem to have a list of historically disadvantaged groups, telling newly disadvantaged groups that they already had their chance. Again, this is nonsense to an unemployed daughter of opiate addicts.

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#29

Post by maroonblazer » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 1:44 PM UTC

bluthru wrote: post #19

ashleyn wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For decades, America has embraced a civic nationalism over a European-style ethnic nationalism. This is that certain notions of freedom and responsibility, not blood and soil, were the real ties that bind. A sense of community can transcend religion and race, and this is what we should strive for.

"Decades" is a short amount of time and "embraced" obviously varies wildly. When the Immigration Act of 1965 was passed it was promised that "the ethnic makeup will not be upset". The American people never voted to be demographically displaced. (Why would they?) >A sense of community can transcend religion and race It can, but you're swimming against nature. Do you think the Japanese people would be happier if Japan…

> It can, but you're swimming against nature. Do you think the Japanese people would be happier if Japan was minority Japanese?

Japan - and many (most?) other countries - don't share the contingencies of America's founding. If I emigrate to Finland do I become, and am I seen by Fins as, Finnish? Not really. But a Fin moving to the U.S. can become an American and perceived by the rest of us as American.

Civilization is rife with examples of us overcoming our natural tendencies. Why should this be any different?

Re: America is moving toward becoming a better version of itself

#30

Post by Clubber » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 1:46 PM UTC

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #20

Density wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop calling people you don't understand racists. These rednecks hate all people who refuse to fit into their culture. They'll hate white NY or CA transplants just as much as they hate Mexicans. Unfortunately actual racism is picking up steam with these folks.

Just this last weekend, we were going through northern Ohio. We stopped at a restaurant. Greasy spoon, one of. Smelled good outside, and lots of cars. We ate. Good food, reasonable price. Near the end, the waitress asked if we'd NOT pay in credit card, so she wouldn't have to report the tips. I'm not terribly concerned about being a conspirator to tax fraud with someone making $2.35/hr Then she goes into talking abou…

I believe you are confusing racism with bigotry. Here is the dictionary definition of racism:

>prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

Of course superior is an objective word, but I don't see any evidence in that quoted statement where she felt superior. Honestly sounded more like self pity, jealousy and stereotyping. "Those union people get paid way more than they deserve," "Those college kids get all the breaks." The only difference is her target were "brown and and black people."

She satisfied the first half of the definition, "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race" but I didn't see the second half, "based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

I could be wrong.