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Whether Ethereum is a security

prestonbyrne.com

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Re: Whether Ethereum is a security

#31

Post by baddox »

fjsolwmv wrote: post #28
baddox wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure I understand the horizontal commonality argument. It sounds like the author is claiming that a technology (e.g. a computer program) is not decentralized if a large portion of the users of the technology use the same implementation of that technology (e.g. use the same exact implementation of the computer program). In other words, if a group of users all run the same Ethereum client software, then it soun…

Why is it bizarre? Users are very intentionally using a specific protocol to create a single shared blockchain, not creating isolated objects of independent value.

It’s bizarre because, according to that definition, “decentralized protocol” is a contradiction of terms.

Re: Whether Ethereum is a security

#32

Post by baddox »

twblalock wrote: post #29
baddox wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure I understand the horizontal commonality argument. It sounds like the author is claiming that a technology (e.g. a computer program) is not decentralized if a large portion of the users of the technology use the same implementation of that technology (e.g. use the same exact implementation of the computer program). In other words, if a group of users all run the same Ethereum client software, then it soun…

> In other words, if a group of users all run the same Ethereum client software, then it sounds like the author is considering then centralized by definition, regardless of the reasons each user decided to use that computer program, the fact that they chose the same implementation means that technology is centralized. Seems logical to me. The motives of the individual users have created an outcome of centralization b…

Doesn’t that effectively mean that no decentralized network system/protocol can possibly exist according to this definition? Of course users have an incentive to be able to communicate with one another.

Re: Whether Ethereum is a security

#34

Post by ENGNR »

blackrock wrote: post #33

Is equity crowdfunding the killer app for Bitcoin?

I'm starting to think the killer app isn't just breaking the back on public security over-regulation (ie pulling an Uber by just disobeying it until they cave), the killer app might be governance in general. An algorithm to gain consensus, which is virtually the sole reason governing bodies exist

I just made an Ask HN to explore this topic more

Re: Whether Ethereum is a security

#35

Post by thisisit »

> But the Ethereum pre-sale looks perfect – and that’s what makes it worth querying. “Donations” from Eth-heads around the world not only flowed into the Ethereum Project’s wallet in great quantities, but they flowed in with the mathematical precision of a power function, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, for two weeks straight.

I went through holdings of top 5 ICOs on Ethereum. One of things struck me was that many of the ICOs had huge amount of cross holding. So, X was holding a lot of Y and Z coins, while Z was doing the same with other ICOs. The number of inter-connections was astounding.

So my opinion is that something is off with the ethereum ICO system. I know that sounds tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy and I don't have solid proof or graphs. But given the evidence of Ethereum's distribution it looks more likely.

Re: Whether Ethereum is a security

#36

Post by nivertech »

thisisit wrote: post #35

> But the Ethereum pre-sale looks perfect – and that’s what makes it worth querying. “Donations” from Eth-heads around the world not only flowed into the Ethereum Project’s wallet in great quantities, but they flowed in with the mathematical precision of a power function, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, for two weeks straight. I went through holdings of top 5 ICOs on Ethereum. One of things struck me was that many of…

Dotcom-style revenue swaps?

"Internet infrastructure companies were simply swapping equipment and putting it on their books as revenue. They essentially handed pieces of paper back and forth and called it money."

https://www.inc.com/niel-robertson/brilliant-failures/dot-co...

Re: Whether Ethereum is a security

#37

Post by nivertech »

chrisco255 wrote: post #18

Why does centralization of the holders have anything to do with whether Ethereum is a security or not? There are four requirements for the Howey test: 1. It is an investment of money 2. There is an expectation of profits from the investment 3. The investment of money is in a common enterprise 4. Any profit comes from the efforts of a promoter or third party Ethereum tokens are virtual commodities useful for purchasin…

> Ethereum tokens are virtual commodities useful for purchasing computational services on the Ethereum network

Wrong, ETH isn't a virtual commodity, gas is. But gas isn't tradable, it's a virtual Unit-of-Account which uses ETH as the only accepted payment method.

IMO, ETH is a tokenized membership unit* in Stiftung Ethereum and by proxy a stake in the Ethereum mainnet.

*) Stiftungs not supposed to have memberships or shares, but that is the genius of Ethereum founders that they found a way to hack non-profit Stiftungs in order to use them for for-profit activities.

Re: Whether Ethereum is a security

#38

Post by pjbyrne »

jasonlaramburu wrote: post #26
pjbyrne wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Duly corrected.

Nice. I think your point comes across much more clearly now. The eth presale graph is much smoother than all the others. Could the smoothness be partially explained by the fact that one could only use btc in the eth presale, whereas later token sales accepted eth and btc?

Thanks!

Possibly, I don't know. The point of the post really was to show that the pre-sale process was amenable to a more forensic/scientific analysis than anything else.

Re: Whether Ethereum is a security

#39

Post by [deleted] »

drcode wrote: post #14
pjbyrne wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it's not the regulators who make the decision and set the precedents, it's the judges. Regulators are currently trying to figure out, to the extent existing precedents are inadequate, how to extend by analogy the existing precedents to the new circumstances in such a way as to convince a judge to extend the precedent. This is how a common law system is designed to work.

To be fair, It's totally reasonable that regulators/judges come come to the same conclusions that you make in your post, I just hold more cynical views as to how they arrive at those conclusions.

[deleted]

Re: Whether Ethereum is a security

#40

Post by thisisit »

nivertech wrote: post #36
thisisit wrote: post #35

> But the Ethereum pre-sale looks perfect – and that’s what makes it worth querying. “Donations” from Eth-heads around the world not only flowed into the Ethereum Project’s wallet in great quantities, but they flowed in with the mathematical precision of a power function, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, for two weeks straight. I went through holdings of top 5 ICOs on Ethereum. One of things struck me was that many of…

Dotcom-style revenue swaps? "Internet infrastructure companies were simply swapping equipment and putting it on their books as revenue. They essentially handed pieces of paper back and forth and called it money." https://www.inc.com/niel-robertson/brilliant-failures/dot-co...

That was an illuminating read. I think the whole ICO system might be something similar.
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