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Whether Ethereum is a security

prestonbyrne.com

21–30 of 40 posts

Re: Whether Ethereum is a security

#21
post #20

Why does centralization of the holders have anything to do with whether Ethereum is a security or not? There are four requirements for the Howey test: 1. It is an investment of money 2. There is an expectation of profits from the investment 3. The investment of money is in a common enterprise 4. Any profit comes from the efforts of a promoter or third party Ethereum tokens are virtual commodities useful for purchasin…

I agree it's all debatable. This post deals only with the "common enterprise" prong as that appears to be the prong of the test that Coin Center and others are trying to challenge most assertively. Centralization of holders makes it look like a more traditional scheme with a central promoter.

Well, what do you think about the forkable nature of blockchain technology and how that relates to the definition of common enterprise? Which "common enterprise" are we talking about at this point, Ethereum Classic or Ethereum? The presale tokens apply to both of these forks after all. At this point, the two chains are completely divergent, run by different devs, and have completely different directions. Anyone is free to fork ETH and take it in a third direction if they like.

Re: Whether Ethereum is a security

#22
For a discussion about certain Ethereum holders forming a common enterprise, I'm surprised to find no mention of the DAO fork [1]. "Management" undoing the DAO was, to me, a defining delineation of Ethereum from Bitcoin.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethereum#The_DAO_event

Re: Whether Ethereum is a security

#23

Why does centralization of the holders have anything to do with whether Ethereum is a security or not? There are four requirements for the Howey test: 1. It is an investment of money 2. There is an expectation of profits from the investment 3. The investment of money is in a common enterprise 4. Any profit comes from the efforts of a promoter or third party Ethereum tokens are virtual commodities useful for purchasin…

[deleted]

Re: Whether Ethereum is a security

#24
post #13

Summary of argument: - Some claim that Ether is not a security because it is decentralized and therefore not a "common enterprise" by the Howey test, but the author disagrees with this specific argument because he thinks it's centralized. - Author believes that a "horizontal commonality" of interested Ether participants can constitute a common enterprise. - Author believes that that GitHub and commit rights are quite…

I’m not sure I understand the horizontal commonality argument. It sounds like the author is claiming that a technology (e.g. a computer program) is not decentralized if a large portion of the users of the technology use the same implementation of that technology (e.g. use the same exact implementation of the computer program). In other words, if a group of users all run the same Ethereum client software, then it sounds like the author is considering then centralized by definition, regardless of the reasons each user decided to use that computer program, the fact that they chose the same implementation means that technology is centralized. If I’m understanding that correctly, then I find that argument bizarre.

Re: Whether Ethereum is a security

#25

For a discussion about certain Ethereum holders forming a common enterprise, I'm surprised to find no mention of the DAO fork [1]. "Management" undoing the DAO was, to me, a defining delineation of Ethereum from Bitcoin. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethereum#The_DAO_event

I appreciate highlighting how centralized this blockchain is, but Bitcoin also benefits from centralized coordination. For example, in 2013, two developers and a mining pool operator successfully commandeered a fork away from the fork with majority hashpower [0]. The conclusion in the linked article is a pretty good summary of how we should look at this issue:

> In summary, we have a lot to learn from looking back at the fork. Bitcoin had a really close call, and another bug might well lead to a different outcome. Contrary to the view of the consensus protocol as fixed in stone by Satoshi, it is under active human stewardship, and the quality of that stewardship is essential to its security. [2] Centralized decision-making saved the day here, and for the most part it’s not in conflict with the decentralized nature of the network itself. The human element becomes crucial when the code fails or needs to adapt over time (e.g., the block size debate). We should accept and embrace the need for a strong leadership and governance structure instead of treating decentralization as a magic bullet.

[0] https://freedom-to-tinker.com/2015/07/28/analyzing-the-2013-...

Re: Whether Ethereum is a security

#26
post #11

Kickstarter campaigns follow a similar pattern to the ethereum graph shown in the article. It’s not because of a malicious user who wants to secretly own all the kickstarters. It’s because time-limited crowdfunding campaigns tend to attract the most donations at the beginning (when enthusiasm/press is high) and towards end of the campaign (when FOMO is high). Also the author should really state in the article that th…

Duly corrected.

Nice. I think your point comes across much more clearly now. The eth presale graph is much smoother than all the others.

Could the smoothness be partially explained by the fact that one could only use btc in the eth presale, whereas later token sales accepted eth and btc?

Re: Whether Ethereum is a security

#27
post #15
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I'll grant you that the differences in the smoothness in the ethereum vs tezos charts is interesting, but your argument is still unconvincing to me for two reasons: First of all, you're basically saying "The ethereum graph is so perfectly what you'd expect from an ideal auction that it can't possibly be ideal" which is the sort of argument that requires more convincing evidence. Secondly, the Tezos auction had man…

Well, it's either the ideal auction or it isn't. The question is how likely is it that a coin auction running for two weeks would produce a curve like that. I can't find any others in crypto so far, though I am open to being proven wrong if someone can show these are common and rule out promoter action as being the cause. Making purchasers in multiple lots isn't nefarious at all, it just disguises how many purchasers…

The sale lasted for 42 days.

> The price of ether is initially set to a discounted price of 2000 ETH per BTC, and will stay this way for 14 days before linearly declining to a final rate of 1337 ETH per BTC. The sale will last 42 days, concluding at 23:59 Zug time September 2

https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/07/22/launching-the-ether-sal...

How much of it did you graph?

Re: Whether Ethereum is a security

#28
post #24
post #13

Summary of argument: - Some claim that Ether is not a security because it is decentralized and therefore not a "common enterprise" by the Howey test, but the author disagrees with this specific argument because he thinks it's centralized. - Author believes that a "horizontal commonality" of interested Ether participants can constitute a common enterprise. - Author believes that that GitHub and commit rights are quite…

I’m not sure I understand the horizontal commonality argument. It sounds like the author is claiming that a technology (e.g. a computer program) is not decentralized if a large portion of the users of the technology use the same implementation of that technology (e.g. use the same exact implementation of the computer program). In other words, if a group of users all run the same Ethereum client software, then it soun…

Why is it bizarre? Users are very intentionally using a specific protocol to create a single shared blockchain, not creating isolated objects of independent value.

Re: Whether Ethereum is a security

#29
post #24
post #13

Summary of argument: - Some claim that Ether is not a security because it is decentralized and therefore not a "common enterprise" by the Howey test, but the author disagrees with this specific argument because he thinks it's centralized. - Author believes that a "horizontal commonality" of interested Ether participants can constitute a common enterprise. - Author believes that that GitHub and commit rights are quite…

I’m not sure I understand the horizontal commonality argument. It sounds like the author is claiming that a technology (e.g. a computer program) is not decentralized if a large portion of the users of the technology use the same implementation of that technology (e.g. use the same exact implementation of the computer program). In other words, if a group of users all run the same Ethereum client software, then it soun…

> In other words, if a group of users all run the same Ethereum client software, then it sounds like the author is considering then centralized by definition, regardless of the reasons each user decided to use that computer program, the fact that they chose the same implementation means that technology is centralized.

Seems logical to me. The motives of the individual users have created an outcome of centralization because they all use the same program to do the same thing.

Re: Whether Ethereum is a security

#30

Why does centralization of the holders have anything to do with whether Ethereum is a security or not? There are four requirements for the Howey test: 1. It is an investment of money 2. There is an expectation of profits from the investment 3. The investment of money is in a common enterprise 4. Any profit comes from the efforts of a promoter or third party Ethereum tokens are virtual commodities useful for purchasin…

There is certainly an expectation of profits. Dot com domains are irrelevant. They are not investing in a common enterprise they are buying an asset they think will accumulate.

Decentralization is also a red herring. The courts don't care whether Ethereum was hosted on a million servers or on a box under Vitaly's bed.

All of this hinges on what is a "common enterprise." Some might argue that Ethereum is a loose collection of volunteers that have come together to work on an open source project for various reasons. The project itself is simply a coordination and collaboration mechanism, indeed as I've been told you could say that cryptocurrencies are not unlike an online game. There is no single server hosting this game, and certain actions in the game require real money, but the important part is that the game is free, created by open source volunteers, and these volunteers do not expect to generate profits in their capacity as volunteers. (The volunteers may on the side actually become players in the game and buy the tokens etc, but they are acting in a different capacity.)

The problem here is precisely point #2 in the article: not all players in the game are equal. Some players have very unique privileges that literally let them change the rules of the game! Sure they're acting in a different capacity, but it's still the same people either way. Now the defense of this is that in theory anybody can come along and fork Ethereum and if they can convince the majority of the network to use their client then they too can change the rules of the game.

But how exactly feasible is this?

And this is where things get very murky. Because when you actually dig into Ethereum and Bitcoin what you find are many shadowy organizations and individuals colluding together to ensure that they win at the game. If it can be shown that certain entities are able to guide the development and price of Ethereum for their own benefit then you could see a judge saying there is a common enterprise at work here. Once you have any kind of "beneficial ownership" due to "effective control" -- no matter what form these may take because the laws are intentionally vague here -- then you almost certainly have an enterprise and what could be considered mega-scale securities violations.

In the end it doesn't really matter. The SEC isn't going to proactively go out and try to settle these questions. It's not how they, or any other regulator for that matter, works. (It's very rare to find a proactive regulator. There is little upside and potentially huge downsides to being a proactive regulator.) So they're going to sit back and wait until people start dying. Only when that happens will they spring into action ito save the day. What will need to happen first is for many investors to file law suits against the Ethereum Foundation (or maybe just Vitaly). There'll also have to be a terrorism/North Korea connection or the like. When it's clear that people are dying or terrorists are winning will the SEC will step in under the guise of "protecting investors" or fighting terrorism.

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