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Walking While Black

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Re: Walking While Black

#101
post #47

North America's attitude towards people of colour, absolutely disgusts me. I simply do not understand why that a country that was founded on on the principles of freedom continues to act this way. The fourth amendment clearly states that all citizens should be treated equally if suspected of a crime, yet this simply does not happen. Yeah, the UK (my homeland) has it's problems, but in the main, racial in-equality is…

> North America's attitude towards people of colour, absolutely disgusts me. I simply do not understand why that a country that was founded on on the principles of freedom continues to act this way. North america isn't a country. And the US wasn't founded on principles of freedom. Slavery existed back then ( slavery brought to the colonies by the british ). > Yeah, the UK (my homeland) has it's problems, but in the m…

You don't know who is London's city mayor, isn't it ? Well I grant you he's not black.

Racism is certainly an issue in Europe, but at least our cops do not gunshot black people for any reason.

Re: Walking While Black

#102
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Police just assume that if you're out at night you are a criminal. No they don't. What they are doing is noticing things that are out of the ordinary. You do the same thing. If everyone is wearing a suit, and one person is wearing shorts, watch all the heads turn. A black man walking through an all white neighborhood late at night will draw attention from any person in that neighborhood. The same is true if a white…

I believe you make a lot of good points, except for one: Walking as a white man through a black neighborhood, the police won't stop you. And even if they did, their attitude would be very different than if it was the other way around.

I have read numerous stories and heard accounts of white people in black neighborhoods who were stopped because it is assumed they are only there to buy drugs. Why would a white person be in such a neighborhood? Sure, there are valid reasons, but it is generally still out of the ordinary.

Re: Walking While Black

#103

When I was growing up I remember the pride our educational system tried to instill in us and it seems so fake in retrospect. It's impossible to be proud of a nation that is only a land of opportunity for those who are white and middle class. Its not that I'm not proud to be an American so much as I don't consider myself one I'm just a person who happens to reside here because I don't have better options.

Even though there is racial disparity and studies show discrimination in housing, jobs, loans, etc. I wouldn't go so far as to say that only White people can get ahead. Yes I'm Black, live in the south and think I'm doing pretty well. I have quite a few friends who would also disagree.

I don't think he meant there is no opportunity for black people, but that it's truly a "land of opportunity" only for whites (more specifically white men).

Like, I grew up in a lower-middle class family and flunked out of college due to my f-ups. I squandered a lot of opportunities through my 20s, and yet still ended up in a position where I could teach myself to become a software developer, and make good money today. I got a lot of extra chances, chances that people of color don't necessarily get.

Re: Walking While Black

#104
post #83

This was a wonderfully written piece and a lot of it rings true to me even as a white as you can be person in a smallish state university town in the midwest. But maybe being 6'2" with a big unkempt hobo beard is almost as scary as being black. I too love walking the streets at night. And I too have to not be myself and behave in very conscious ways to avoid being hassled and detained by the police. Police just assum…

Sometimes it really is a thin line. In my country (The Netherlands) police sometimes check all cars passing a temporary checkpoint. They check if you have open fines, paid your taxes etc. When really expensive cars pass those checkpoints they verify that the owner actually has a job to afford cars like these and if the owner doesn't they can impound the car on suspicion of being paid with criminal money. Statistics h…

  A few years ago a (black) rap artist was stopped at the side of the
  road by police and they basically admitted that this was racial
  profiling.

  The artist made some fuss about it on social media, and it appeared
  in all news broadcasts and talk shows. People were expecting some
  big commotion about it; but it turns out that the majority of people
  actually approved of this method.

  It wasn't racism at work here, it was statistics and people were
  fine with it.

Your conclusion is incorrect. Yes it is racism, and furthermore, the majority of people in a society being fine with it is not only irrelevant as to whether it's racism, it is what makes it structural racism. Something that everyone is fine with never seems questionable to members of the set of people who think it's fine.

Now let's explain why it being statistics doesn't mean it can't be racism. I have used this analogy before:

http://braythwayt.com/2016/03/30/racism-is-injustice.html

A woman is murdered in her home. Statistics tell us that when a woman is murdered in her home, it is nearly always her partner. So, why don't we merely arrest the partner and march them off to jail without gathering evidence, following pesky rules about having a lawyer involved, or examining the burden of proof?

Statistics, one might say, reverse the burden of proof. Why isn't it up to the partner to prove that they're innocent?

We can A/B test this application of statistics: Let's say that 9/10 times, the partner did it. In test A, we lock 100 partners up without trial. Presto, we have the right person in prison 90 times, and have an innocent person in prison 10 times, but being right 90% of the time feels pretty good, and we saved a lot of money and bother. Everybody who isn't the partner of a murdered woman feels pretty good about test A.

In test B, we arrest 100 partners, but then we gather evidence and have trials, even though "everybody knows the partner did it." Good news! Of the ten partners in test B who didn't do it, nine are set free. One, alas, is wrongfully imprisoned for a crime the did not commit. But one wrongfully imprisoned person is better than ten, right?

Well, it's not so simple. Of the 90 people who did do it in test B, the evidence wasn't always solid. So in ten cases, they cut a deal for a reduced sentence. In six cases, they "beat the rap in court" and were also set free, despite having done it. Three cases didn't even make it to court for some technicality or other.

So test B is much better for the case where someone is innocent: There is only one person wrongfully imprisoned, instead of ten. But it's worse for the case where someone is guilty. Instead of ninety guilty people receiving the full punishment, Only 71 receive the full punishment. Then get a reduced punishment, and nine guilty people walk free!

In pure, bloodless statistics, A is better than B. A is right 90% of the time, B is only right 80% of the time. But if we want to talk about justice, B is better than A. In terms of justice, one person wrongfully imprisoned is worse than 100 guilty people set free. False positives are abhorrent to a just society, and false negatives (not to mention costly trials) are the price society is willing to pay to ensure justice.

So back to statistics and stopping cars. If statistics tell you that black men are more likely to be illegal immigrants, or have unpaid fines, or whatever, and you use that to stop every black man driving a car, but you don't stop white men, that is unjust for the same reason as locking up the partners without trial.

You have imposed a consequence--not being able to drive without being stopped by police--on some number of innocent black men--because they belong to a class of people who statistically are more likely to have done something wrong.

One can argue that being stopped is not the same thing as being jailed without trial. But it is. When travelling, you might be asked if you have ever been detained by police. Same when applying for a job. In some countries (cough, USA, cough) this perspective on statistics starts with stopping cars, and ends in gunfire.

Even in civilised countries, people reason that if it's ok for the police to stop every black man because black men have statistically committed more crimes, it is ok to not rent to black men, or not employ black men. And if asked, they will say, "I'm not a racist, I'm a statistician.". Law enforcement choices send a strong message about "what everyone thinks is ok."

At some point, though, it comes down to justice. Justice is not imposing consequences upon someone without actual, inspectable evidence. Injustice is imposing consequences upon someone because somebody else who has something in common with them broke the law.

And racism is using statistics to impose injustice on someone because of their race. It's that simple.

Re: Walking While Black

#105
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my experience racism is more subtle in those european countries. E.g. you only get disadvantaged in more anonymous situations, but never actively excluded or attacked in person. I live in Switzerland and noticed that especially when looking for jobs. When I was in middle school we had to look for apprenticeships to do after we finished school. In my class 5 of 20 were foreigners, and only I found a place (after…

I know the situation in the US and here in Germany, and if I had dark skin I'm really not sure which poison I'd choose. In Germany a Westernized dark-skinned person will feel quite comfortable, but when it comes to things like competing for promotions, investments, capital, heck even flats, and etc. - they will tend to lose out a little too often. People in positions of power, while friendly, have a strong and unexam…

That's more a Silicon Valley culture than an American one. Not to say California isn't part of America, but that same glass ceiling exists in most places in America, and it's probably lower.

Re: Walking While Black

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even though there is racial disparity and studies show discrimination in housing, jobs, loans, etc. I wouldn't go so far as to say that only White people can get ahead. Yes I'm Black, live in the south and think I'm doing pretty well. I have quite a few friends who would also disagree.

I don't think he meant there is no opportunity for black people, but that it's truly a "land of opportunity" only for whites (more specifically white men). Like, I grew up in a lower-middle class family and flunked out of college due to my f-ups. I squandered a lot of opportunities through my 20s, and yet still ended up in a position where I could teach myself to become a software developer, and make good money today…

If you look at income mobility in the US, statistically it’s not the land of opportunity for anyone who comes from a poor household. (https://hbr.org/2014/02/what-we-know-about-income-mobility-d...)

Example:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/05/25/the-s...

Re: Walking While Black

#107
post #82
post #47

North America's attitude towards people of colour, absolutely disgusts me. I simply do not understand why that a country that was founded on on the principles of freedom continues to act this way. The fourth amendment clearly states that all citizens should be treated equally if suspected of a crime, yet this simply does not happen. Yeah, the UK (my homeland) has it's problems, but in the main, racial in-equality is…

You should visit Latin America. Everyone is judged by their skin tone. The darker you are, the more you are regarded as "the help." Parents are excited when their children are born with light skin. My in-laws are all Mexican and I can say that they are far more racist than any US citizen I've met. I'm not even sure it's really "racism." But I do know that it's considered completely normal to think of others this way.

The term you are looking for is “colorism”

Re: Walking While Black

#108
post #100
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police in New Zealand and Australia seem to be a lot less agressive than their American counterparts. I don't ever hear of stories like the original post come from either country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkenba_Six

I don't understand what point you were trying to make by linking to a wiki article of a single incident that happened over two decades ago?

Re: Walking While Black

#109
post #84

The article and this thread explicitly call out racism. The terms race or racism show up a dozen times (now more), but sexism only appears once. In terms of criminal justice, men are treated significantly more harshly. The man's sex seems at least as important as his race, but it seems we don't see or talk about that bias as much. Are we blind to sexism when it hurts men? How can we do anything about it if we don't t…

Perhaps the conversation you are looking for is the one about what’s known as “intersectionality”

Re: Walking While Black

#110
post #47

North America's attitude towards people of colour, absolutely disgusts me. I simply do not understand why that a country that was founded on on the principles of freedom continues to act this way. The fourth amendment clearly states that all citizens should be treated equally if suspected of a crime, yet this simply does not happen. Yeah, the UK (my homeland) has it's problems, but in the main, racial in-equality is…

> a country that was founded on on the principles of freedom

The USA, my country, was not founded on the principles of freedom. It was founded on the principles of white supremacy.

Its quite easy to come to this conclusion if we simply look at the US Constitution, which has a clause stating that the Black slaves brought to this country for a single purpose, that of chattel slavery, were to be counted as 3/5ths of a person in order to determine the makeup of congress. That is directly against any "principles of freedom" I can come up with.

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