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How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

nytimes.com

11–20 of 285 posts

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#11
post #2

As the production costs with windpower decrease due to the technological progress, the question of grid storage and grid interconnection becomes more pressing. E.g. in Germany, they frequently have days of negative energy prices, where producers need to pay to feed energy into the greed because of overproduction of energy on windy/sunny days [0](in German). Without storage and grid interconnection, there is only so m…

Isn't this where pumped storage and other forms of storage come into play? Here in Scotland we routinely pump water back up into our lochs in order to store it for future use. There's also various news articles reporting on German mines beginning to be used as pumped storage sites, with a reservoir on the surface, and water dropping into the mines below when there's sudden demand. This is a good problem to have, thou…

A lot of the best sites for pumped storage are already developed as pumped storage. It's kind of the opposite of other storage technologies. As sites get developed the economics of future sites get worse.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#13
> Lower costs, though, have also made wind power more appealing elsewhere. Once mostly concentrated in northern Europe, Mr. Nauen is optimistic that new markets will emerge in Asia and the United States.

South America too. In just the last 12 months, installed capacity in Brazil went from 10.4 GW to 12.5 GW (source: Boletim Mensal de Geração Eólica - ONS).

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#14
post #5
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As for storage, shouldn't there be plenty of hydroelectric dams that could run "backwards"? Or is there an interconnection issue you mention?

For a hydroelectric dam to be able to "run backwards", it needs a lower reservoir. Many dams have only an upper reservoir.

Simply turning them off would be running backwards since water would build up behind them.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#15
The interesting question is what effect clean energy has to the usage of hydrocarbons. Will it bring reduce global demand or just reduce the price of energy.

The good news is: CO2 emission intensity is going down globally and emissions per capita in US, China and EU28 are going down.

The bad news are: Emissions per capita are still going up globally, and hydrocarbon usage and CO2 emissions are breaking records year after year. http://folk.uio.no/roberan/img/GCP2017/PNG/s09_FossilFuel_an... Economic downturn was the only thing causing temporary decline.

It looks like clean energy reduces the demand in developed countries, thus reducing the prices of hydrocarbons. It will not reduce the CO2 emissions globally, it just moves them from the developed world to the developing world. Maybe it slows down CO2 emission growth rate?

http://folk.uio.no/roberan/learnmore/more_warning_signs.shtm...

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EDIT: Just to point out how complex the dynamics between clean energy, hydrocarbons and policy are, here is nice recent research paper from Acemoglu and Rafey:

Mirage on the Horizon: Geoengineering and Carbon Taxation Without Commitment https://economics.mit.edu/files/14855

>Abstract: We show that, in a model without commitment to future policies, geoengineering breakthroughs can have adverse environmental and welfare effects because they change the (equilibrium) carbon taxes. In our model, energy producers emit carbon, which creates a negative environmental externality, and may decide to switch to cleaner technology. A benevolent social planner sets carbon taxes without commitment. Higher future carbon taxes both reduce emissions given technology and encourage energy producers to switch to cleaner technology. Geoengineering advances, which reduce the negative environmental effects of the existing stock of carbon, decrease future carbon taxes and thus discourage private investments in conventional clean technology. We characterize the conditions under which these advances diminish—rather than improve—environmental quality and welfare.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#16
post #7

Wind turbines, they are not milling anything. One would have hoped that a paper like NYT would something as basic as that right.

agreed! my first thought was someone had rigged electric generators in the old actual windmills of the Netherlands. My second thought was, last I checked, they're not remotely as big as jumbo's....

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#17
post #2

As the production costs with windpower decrease due to the technological progress, the question of grid storage and grid interconnection becomes more pressing. E.g. in Germany, they frequently have days of negative energy prices, where producers need to pay to feed energy into the greed because of overproduction of energy on windy/sunny days [0](in German). Without storage and grid interconnection, there is only so m…

Isn't this where pumped storage and other forms of storage come into play? Here in Scotland we routinely pump water back up into our lochs in order to store it for future use. There's also various news articles reporting on German mines beginning to be used as pumped storage sites, with a reservoir on the surface, and water dropping into the mines below when there's sudden demand. This is a good problem to have, thou…

According to Wikipedia we have 15 GWh of pumped storage capacity in Scotland. Per annum we use 27,000 GWh. So by my calculations we have a pumped storage battery that lasts about 5 hours.

(NB: I didn't check whether the power output of this battery is enough to actually meet demand, but wikipedia says it can run at full capacity for 22 hours, so no)

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#19
Problem is that these are political markets not market markets. Denmark spent a lot of money on getting their windmill industry up and running and windmills still aren't solving the base problem as they aren't reliable for all sorts of weather.

Furthermore, windmilss don't really scale well, Nuclear on the other hand which is both safer and more scalable and greener would change that but right now only the Chinese seems to have realized that.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#20
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like an opportunity for collaboration between crypto miners and the wind people.

And maybe it can be mediated by fungible electricity transmitted over a grid of conductive wires. Or an electricity market.

What I've meant was mining on the wind mills themselves. So there would be no need of passing through the grid.
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