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Tracking the Illegal Shipment of Sarin Precursor from Belgium to Syria

bellingcat.com

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Re: Tracking the Illegal Shipment of Sarin Precursor from Belgium to Syria

#51

Post by scottie_m »

valuearb wrote: post #42
deleteme12345 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The White Helmets" -- there's your problem. > There is a reason Assad’s government blocked inspectors from examining the latest claimed attack. That did not happen.

> That did not happen. Is the Washington Post & OPCW lying? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/chemical-weapons-coveru... I assume you believe that since you also apparently believe Russian and Syrian claims that a volunteer search and rescue organization that's helped thousands of people is really made up of terrorists generating false flag stories. And by the downvotes you aren't the only one. Though I also see y…

As I said in my first post, the evidence for chlorine being added to barrel bombs is strong, and that’s certainly a chemical weapon. I haven’t seen any good evidence of nerve agents used though, which are another class of chemical weapon, and what relates to this blog.

I would also point out that this whole chemical weapons debate is an emotional dog whistle. Somehow we accept dropping 1000lb barrel bombs loaded with shrapnel on civilians, but the addition of chlorine makes it inhumane? Come on, it’s mass slaughter in Syria, and chemicals doing the bulk of the damage are high explosives and incendiaries.

Let’s be honest with ourselves and each other, and accept that we either care about this, or don’t. Don’t buy into narratives that somehow it only matters when gas is involved. The important considerations have to do with the degree of killing (which is huge) and what we feel we can do about it at an acceptable cost (very little). We should be honest about why we’re hysterical about Syria (Russia) and almost totally ignoring Yemen (Saudi Arabia).

Re: Tracking the Illegal Shipment of Sarin Precursor from Belgium to Syria

#53

Post by secfirstmd »

k1m wrote: post #44
scottie_m wrote: post #2

I want to be clear that I don’t know if chemical weapons are being used in Syria, although the evidence for the use of Chlorine in barrel bombs is strong. I’ll be honest and say that I haven’t seen good evidence of organophosphate poisonings, but I’m just some guy so who knows. What I do know for sure however, is that this blog is utter bunk. The Belgian customs found that without having requested the appropriate exp…

Good to be sceptical of Bellingcat. Information on funding: https://twitter.com/BenjaminNorton/status/879036821954539520 Pulitzer prize winning journalist Seymour Hersh responded to attacks by Bellingcat here: https://www.alternet.org/media/seymour-hersh-syria-bombshell

Not really. If you work in the NGO space closely you'll know that Bellingcats funders are pretty much run of the mill ones.

Also, I'm a big Seymour Hersh fan but unfortunately he got made to look foolish with that article. Lots of what he said was implausible from the start and his major thesis have been globally dubunked. I suspect he was for once fed some bad sources.

Re: Tracking the Illegal Shipment of Sarin Precursor from Belgium to Syria

#55

Post by k1m »

secfirstmd wrote: post #53
k1m wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good to be sceptical of Bellingcat. Information on funding: https://twitter.com/BenjaminNorton/status/879036821954539520 Pulitzer prize winning journalist Seymour Hersh responded to attacks by Bellingcat here: https://www.alternet.org/media/seymour-hersh-syria-bombshell

Not really. If you work in the NGO space closely you'll know that Bellingcats funders are pretty much run of the mill ones. Also, I'm a big Seymour Hersh fan but unfortunately he got made to look foolish with that article. Lots of what he said was implausible from the start and his major thesis have been globally dubunked. I suspect he was for once fed some bad sources.

Happen to have any links on Seymour Hersh being "made to look foolish" with his article?

Robert Fisk, also a highly respected journalist, was the first Western journalist to visit Douma after the recent bombing. His report casts doubt on the claims about what happened in Syria that led to the UK, US, and France to bomb without waiting for evidence. See https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-chemical-attack-g...

Re: Tracking the Illegal Shipment of Sarin Precursor from Belgium to Syria

#56

Post by pcrh »

jmblpati wrote: post #48
cfadvan wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the United Nations, Syria imported 1,916,504 kilograms of "Propyl alcohol and isopropyl alcohol" in 2010, 1,705,420 kilograms in 2009, 926,139 kilograms in 2008, and so on... ...To quote another here. Isopropyl alcohol is not an organophosphate precursor. https://cyber.sci-hub.hk/MTAuMTAwMi9zbGN0LjIwMTcwMjc2Mw==/qu... Precursors of CW agents are chemicals which have relatively small molecules, that may b…

Your claim about fluorine being essential for organophosphate nerve agents is incorrect. The original nerve agent, tabun, contains no fluorine at all for example. Neither do VX, parathion, or paraoxon. The mechanism behind organophosphate poisoning lies entirely in the phosphate part of the molecule. Among the enzymes present in the human body are a large class known as serine hydrolases. These enzymes hydrolyze chem…

Just for your information, the mechanism of organophosphate nerve agent toxicity does not involve serine hydrolyases. It involves acetylcholinesterase.

https://chemm.nlm.nih.gov/nerveagents.htm

Re: Tracking the Illegal Shipment of Sarin Precursor from Belgium to Syria

#57

Post by Tycho »

wybiral wrote: post #37
Tycho wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And sometimes a simple, straight-forward comment is all it takes to stop the propaganda effort dead in its tracks (hence why many such articles have the comment section mysteriously disabled, e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/syria-white-he... ). Leaving it to readers to go out and actively vet the information on some other 'forum' just allows the propaganda to spread further than it otherwise would.

A voice of reason can quickly be overshadowed by a wave of ignorance. The comments sections on most of the news articles I've seen, when they're up, are usually divisive noisy trolls.

Negligible price to pay.

Re: Tracking the Illegal Shipment of Sarin Precursor from Belgium to Syria

#58

Post by mistermann »

davidhakendel wrote: post #29
valuearb wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s very clear that chemical weapons have been used in Syria, and the evidence is overwhelming that the Syrian government was behind the vast majority of the attacks. I know of at least one tech company that compiles photos of the attacks, geo and time stamped, and the photos are beyond disturbing.

> and the evidence is overwhelming that the Syrian government was behind the vast majority of the attacks. What evidence might that be?

Claims in the newspaper and on TV I suspect, which most people seem to consider evidence nowadays.

Re: Tracking the Illegal Shipment of Sarin Precursor from Belgium to Syria

#59

Post by pcrh »

deleteme12345 wrote: post #26
valuearb wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s very clear that chemical weapons have been used in Syria, and the evidence is overwhelming that the Syrian government was behind the vast majority of the attacks. I know of at least one tech company that compiles photos of the attacks, geo and time stamped, and the photos are beyond disturbing.

No, it's not "very clear" as the "intelligence" is 100% Twitter-based and zero actual autopsy has taken place, as no one actually died that day. Or so say the hospital staff.

The OPCW reports on Syria's chemical weapon efforts can be found at the link below. Syria has been making and deploying chemical weapons for quite a while.

https://www.opcw.org/special-sections/syria/

Re: Tracking the Illegal Shipment of Sarin Precursor from Belgium to Syria

#60

Post by guilhas »

varenc wrote: post #36
hhfcvh wrote: post #3

Putting isopropanol in the export control list is BS. That’s a precursor to everything - you might as well say: “we don’t like you so you’re not allowed to have industry”

I found this list of all the different sorts of isopropanol uses interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol#Uses

Special note to: "Automotive: Isopropyl alcohol is a major ingredient in "gas dryer" fuel additives." Syria gets freezing temperatures in winter.

Also 'sarin use' was added 19 April. And the guy added it to the introduction, but it was removed later with the comment "... dangerous molecules are often in part made from everyday chemicals as components."

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