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Finland tax authorities matching Bitcoin transactions and bank transfers

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Re: Finland tax authorities matching Bitcoin transactions and bank transfers

#91

Post by Sangermaine »

StavrosK wrote: post #9
grey-area wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty trivial for a nation state, given sufficient motivation.

Not if it's something like Monero.

This isn't a new problem for tax authorities, it's an old and solved one, despite the shiny new technological wrapper.

If you're making a lot of unreported income, there are ways for the tax authorities to know, in the same way they do with income from illegal activities that you're not reporting or large amounts of cash payments you're hiding, or just unreported income in general.

They don't need to match your identity to your Monero addresses. If you're using your Monero in any way that interacts with the real world they're going to ask where the money in your accounts came from, where the money for these assets you've been buying but don't seem to have a way to afford came from, where the money for these investments you've been making came from...

Even if you can somehow obtain things without converting out of the cryptocurrency, you're still acquiring assets, investments, and the like that require registration and disclosure, which will then lead to the same questions. Paying your monthly rent directly in cryptocurrency? If anyone audits or investigates you're going to have to explain how you're affording it when your reported income doesn't seem to support it.

And the sellers/landlords/etc will themselves have records, so you better hope they're also completely committed to protecting you if they themselves get audited or investigated.

Re: Finland tax authorities matching Bitcoin transactions and bank transfers

#92

Post by neffy »

hedgew wrote: post #7

All they're doing is looking for bank transactions to crypto exchanges in citizens' accounts. What this article doesn't tell, is that the current cryptocurrency taxation in Finland is unreasonable. You pay 30-34% tax on any profit, but you can not deduct losses. If you had bought 1 BTC at $1000, another at $14000, and sold both at $3000 you would owe $600 in taxes even though you lost $9000. You can imagine how peopl…

This is a similar complaint to that which people like Goldman Sachs have with taxation on shares...

Here comes the new financial system, same as the old one, with added bugs.

Re: Finland tax authorities matching Bitcoin transactions and bank transfers

#93

Post by [deleted] »

pfortuny wrote: post #85
dancek wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, all taxation can be considered unreasonable. It's true that the system doesn't work similarly for cryptocurrencies and stock, but that's no reason not to pay your taxes. It's not like the system came as a surprise to the people who sold crypto in 2017. My personal experience is that most Finns whine about taxes, yet they also complain if healthcare and infrastructure and education isn't perfect and completely f…

Well, yes but the parent is complaining about taxes on a net financial loss . This is really unjust and something difficult to support.

[deleted]

Re: Finland tax authorities matching Bitcoin transactions and bank transfers

#94

Post by matt4077 »

ptaipale wrote: post #61
pjc50 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm skeptical of this, and went looking for primary sources. The Finnish tax authority website seems to have a different example: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=y&prev... (from https://www.vero.fi/syventavat-vero-ohjeet/ohje-hakusivu/484... ) "Example 1: One person has in the past bought 1,000 bitcoins for 500 euros, ie one Bitcoin cost EUR 0.5. He later bought more 500 bitcoins for 500 euros,…

The third example lays out a situation where the loss is not deductable even though it is a real loss. What worries me more is that this is an "instruction", but the tax authorities are not bound by instructions. And they are known to do as they want, even flouting European law (particularly when it is to do with car taxes, although not so much related to bitcoins.).

Someone actually did the leg work and disproved you. How about saying “I was wrong” instead of careening off into conspiracy theories and unrelated grievances?

Re: Finland tax authorities matching Bitcoin transactions and bank transfers

#95

Post by heavenlyblue »

matt4077 wrote: post #94
ptaipale wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The third example lays out a situation where the loss is not deductable even though it is a real loss. What worries me more is that this is an "instruction", but the tax authorities are not bound by instructions. And they are known to do as they want, even flouting European law (particularly when it is to do with car taxes, although not so much related to bitcoins.).

Someone actually did the leg work and disproved you. How about saying “I was wrong” instead of careening off into conspiracy theories and unrelated grievances?

It only works that way if both of them are equally familiar with Finish culture.

Re: Finland tax authorities matching Bitcoin transactions and bank transfers

#96

Post by darawk »

dancek wrote: post #53
hedgew wrote: post #7

All they're doing is looking for bank transactions to crypto exchanges in citizens' accounts. What this article doesn't tell, is that the current cryptocurrency taxation in Finland is unreasonable. You pay 30-34% tax on any profit, but you can not deduct losses. If you had bought 1 BTC at $1000, another at $14000, and sold both at $3000 you would owe $600 in taxes even though you lost $9000. You can imagine how peopl…

Well, all taxation can be considered unreasonable. It's true that the system doesn't work similarly for cryptocurrencies and stock, but that's no reason not to pay your taxes. It's not like the system came as a surprise to the people who sold crypto in 2017. My personal experience is that most Finns whine about taxes, yet they also complain if healthcare and infrastructure and education isn't perfect and completely f…

There's a big difference between complaining about the tax level, or even the tax distribution, and what's going on here, which is completely insane. Paying taxes on a net loss is an absolutely crazy structure that no sane government should be imposing. It's so insane i'm skeptical it's even true, but if it is, he's absolutely right to be upset about it.

Re: Finland tax authorities matching Bitcoin transactions and bank transfers

#97

Post by yunesj »

yorwba wrote: post #56
brownbat wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sympathize with the consistency of a "pure universal" approach to policy, but like many purist policy philosophies, I don't think it would survive rigorous implementation. For so many reasons. Chief among them, maybe, people are generally reluctant to support governments engaged in transfers of resources from themselves to billionaires.

If you provide the billionaire with food stamps, but tax them at 10% of their net worth (which would reduce them to a mere millionaire in ≈65 years), I'm not sure whether anyone would complain about the food stamps.

I prefer the simpler policy, but strongly oppose the 10% net worth tax!

> I'm not sure whether anyone would complain

Maybe the billionaires would complain? Or is their sacrifice necessary for your greater good?

I would also complain. It's unethical. And, we don't need yet another tax on the most value-bearing (and typically philanthropic) people in society, to be collected by the most violent organization in history, to dole out food stamps and other benefits in the most inefficient way possible.

Re: Finland tax authorities matching Bitcoin transactions and bank transfers

#98

Post by whataretensors »

brownbat wrote: post #49
mcny wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is kind of off topic but we should really get rid of all income thresholds for government services and safety nets. They divide people and make them resent one another. I think we should instead make these programs available to all otherwise qualifying applicants (New York excelsior can keep the state residency requirement but should not be allowed to say it applies only to people who make under $125k a year). I…

I sympathize with the consistency of a "pure universal" approach to policy, but like many purist policy philosophies, I don't think it would survive rigorous implementation. For so many reasons. Chief among them, maybe, people are generally reluctant to support governments engaged in transfers of resources from themselves to billionaires.

It's also about helping young people who have parents who aren't filing taxes. I was poor and in this situation in college.

Re: Finland tax authorities matching Bitcoin transactions and bank transfers

#99

Post by yunesj »

mvindahl wrote: post #45
hedgew wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't sound right. The authorities in Finland specifically tax gains made with cryptocurrencies. You only pay tax if you make profit on any individual trade. But you can not deduct trades that made a loss. It's not exactly a wealth tax, but it's also hard to consider a capital gains tax because you can't deduct losses. Treating other investment products this way would probably have horrific results, because it…

If you buy stocks in a publicly traded Finnish company, then you're taking on a risk in the hope of making a profit. But you are also putting your money at work in the Finnish economy, stimulating job creation and growth. Everybody wins, hopefully. If, on the other hand, you put down your money in bitcoin or at the online blackjack tables then you're gambling, not investing. Win or lose, your gamble creates zero dome…

Stocks aren't really a direct investment in a company like you're assuming.

Instead, investing in stocks and cryptocurrencies benefit the economy in very similar ways. In both cases, companies hold on to these assets, and can sell them to raise money for doing projects, buying companies, hiring employees, etc.

But government's probably shouldn't be incentivizing or de-incentivizing any investing. Saving money is sometimes the best thing to do with it.

Re: Finland tax authorities matching Bitcoin transactions and bank transfers

#100

Post by bjl »

darawk wrote: post #96
dancek wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, all taxation can be considered unreasonable. It's true that the system doesn't work similarly for cryptocurrencies and stock, but that's no reason not to pay your taxes. It's not like the system came as a surprise to the people who sold crypto in 2017. My personal experience is that most Finns whine about taxes, yet they also complain if healthcare and infrastructure and education isn't perfect and completely f…

There's a big difference between complaining about the tax level , or even the tax distribution , and what's going on here, which is completely insane. Paying taxes on a net loss is an absolutely crazy structure that no sane government should be imposing. It's so insane i'm skeptical it's even true, but if it is, he's absolutely right to be upset about it.

Why is it insane? Its like winning the power ball and then blowing it all on scratchers. You owe taxes on the win but can't necessarily deduct the losses.

Which, tbh, seems perfectly fine to me.

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