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The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

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Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#811
post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most senior devs have a family, value work/life balance, and currently have another job. I don't expect them to take their work home past 5 while they're working with me, so why should I expect them to do that before I'm even paying them?

Almost too obvious solution: do an initial phone chat to filter qualified candidates into a small pool and then pay your final round of candidates a nice rate to complete a take home project. Bonus points if you can make it something that you can actually use at your company.

This is a terrible solution at many levels. Paying someone who isn't on your payroll (yet) needs a lot of bureacracy on both sides (e.g. taxes).

And even if it's paid, it's still a not-insignificant time investment for the applicant. They're probably applying for several gigs and take home assignments would quickly turn into a full time job, and filing the tax paperwork could take more time than the coding.

And finally, assigning a job that would actually get used at a company pushes up the complexity level, the need to understand the context. This would also make me very suspicious about the motives of the company.

In my company, we give a "fizzbuzz" level assignment on the whiteboard (or their own laptop if they prefer). The purpose is to weed out the applicants who can't code at all (makes a surprisingly large portion of applicants). Additionally, we've noticed that the ones who are good programmers will ace these tests.

I don't think that whiteboard assignments or takehome work is a good way to assess how good a programmer is. A 15-30 minute smoke test with a binary result (the applicant can or can not code at all) is good to filter out bad applicants but not to distinguish good from excellent.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#812

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m going to show some vulnerability… this happened to me this week. I’m probably like a lot of you here: professional software developer for 20 years, have shipped countless products in multiple languages / technologies. Work has appeared on tv and print media multiple times. Have generated millions and millions in cost savings and revenue for employers and clients. But I totally failed a technical screen. It’s been…

So a little more on the interview. I've got a laptop setup with eclipse, all rigged up with an integration test and filled out function signatures. I show the interviewee what to press to compile, and the subsequent failing tests. The code builds in it's initial state, but the tests fail. I also show them on the desktop that the original source is squirreled away in case they fat finger and erase everything (I've tot…

Pair. I do this. I drive, with my machine, on my setup that I'm comfortable with. They navigate, and tell me what to do.

This gives me a pretty deep insight into how they approach a problem, but also how they interact with others. There's no adversarial element, and it gives them the chance to see me screw up to give them the mental space not to sorry about stupid errors.

The one worry I have about this is that it's more vulnerable to my own biases than a more disinterested process would be, but if I'm consciously aware of how that can play out, I'm in a better place to counter them.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#813
post #800

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real talk? There is nothing wrong with being in IT. Imagine if someone said "I would be concerned I'd be seen as a carpenter and not a woodworking artisan". You're a carpenter. You nail boards together to serve the business interests of the company. Even if the boards are SQL queries or ReactJS or whatever. Companies need tech. You can bring value by making everyone's jobs better with your technology - sand off those…

> Imagine if someone said "I would be concerned I'd be seen as a carpenter and not a woodworking artisan". Carpenters build houses, woodworkers build furniture. IT people reinstall operating systems, fix printers and networking issues and software engineers write software. They have a different education, different job description and different pay scales. A woodworker wouldn't make a good carpenter nor a software en…

Unless you're George Lucas, and then you hire a team of cabinet makers to build your deck.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#814

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real talk? There is nothing wrong with being in IT. Imagine if someone said "I would be concerned I'd be seen as a carpenter and not a woodworking artisan". You're a carpenter. You nail boards together to serve the business interests of the company. Even if the boards are SQL queries or ReactJS or whatever. Companies need tech. You can bring value by making everyone's jobs better with your technology - sand off those…

Many non-tech employees view IT people as basically “computer janitors with bad attitudes”. Heck, I’ve worked in tech for a decade and I can count the number of people who have a positive view of their IT department in one hand.

Doing ops at megacorp meant that we got treated like code janitors by our own management.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#815
post #727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spot on. It's rude to ask very basic questions to anyone with seniority. Just skip them and ask interesting and difficult ones. If a company cannot be flexible and reasonable enough to skip basic questions it's a bit of a red flag.

It's a bit rude but until senior-level-role-interviewing candidates can stop falling over on the basic questions why waste time with harder ones? The "candidate with an MS degree in CS and x years at SomeCo, can't do FizzBuzz" isn't a myth, it really happens to people giving interviews. I've been having to give some interviews lately (though unfortunately they have to be within 'process') and my basic question is to…

> "candidate with an MS degree in CS and x years at SomeCo, can't do FizzBuzz" isn't a myth

I've interviewed many candidates. It happens to find people that cannot code at all.

Yet, one does not propose trivial coding challenges like FizzBuzz. Very little is gained from finding out that a senior developer can do FizzBuzz and then fails at any more complex coding. You simply go for more complex questions straight away.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#816
post #513
post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could extend your attitude to any sort of disability couldn't you. Why hire someone in a wheelchair, when there is someone who could walk up the stairs in half the time?

Can the person in the wheelchair code fizzbuzz in an interview?

"Can they code it on the job" is the relevant question.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#817
post #310
post #301

It's unreal that will people will bitch and moan about having to invest a couple days, maybe even a whole week in cramming/prepping/interviewing, to perform on-demand, one time, for a job that realistically will earn them $100k, $200k, $300k, $400k+ a year. Meanwhile people that work harder than us 5 days a week for the entire duration of their career will make 1/2, 1/4, 1/6th, or less of income, with none of the per…

You can't know for sure that dad/friend/partner didn't write or review the assignment either. How about a 4-5 hours coding rush in the office, where you have to add a few functions or features to an existing codebase?

I think this is fine as long as it's a bottle problem -- something for the interview that is not of benefit to the business. If a company is asking you to do unpaid work on their existing database without paying you, it's unethical.

I think in general asking you to do a coding assignment in the office is better than asking you to do homework because there is a cost (in terms of time invested) to the company. For homework, a company can ask dozens of applicants to invest hours of their time at minimum cost to the company, even when some of bthose applicants had no chance to begin with. Here, they're forced to be choosier.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#818
post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no shame in it. Same thing happened to me last week, and I was furious about it. I've resolved not to take any more live coding interviews, on the grounds it is uninformative, degrading hazing. We're composers, but we're being tested as if we're live concert pianists. Then companies complain that there's a talent shortage! This hurts everybody, and it needs to stop. For my part, I will refuse to participate a…

> I've resolved not to take any more live coding interviews, on the grounds it is uninformative, degrading hazing. Depends on the job. I'm currently hiring and the live coding exercise is a must for the position because I want to see how the person problem solves while under stress. Because stuff happens. My team works on mission critical systems that can have issues that we sometimes must resolve quickly which is ve…

You appear to view stress as a good thing, or, at the very least, an unavoidable part of the job. It seems likely to me that you deliberately manufacture stress by deploying mission-critical systems that have issues. Seems there might be deficiencies in your pre-deployment testing regime -- a stress factory for sure.

tl;dr: If you're a stress factory there's no way on earth I'd be willing to work for you in the first place.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#819
post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

> Apart from getting a candidate to actually pump out some code, even trivially, we don't really have a way to de-facto verify that the person says they can do what they say they can do, short of a personal reference from someone, say, in the company already that knows and has worked with the person in the past.

How do hospitals make sure that their surgeons can do surgery without having them do surgery? Do they have some magic eightball?

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#820

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, programmers also don't go through a medical school equivalent or residency. We don't take boards. I'm married to a doctor and we were together through her time in medical school and residency. If I had to choose between skill checks in the interviewing process and the 8 grueling years of hell that was med school and residency, I will take option 1 without a second of consideration.

There are developers who went through a master or PhD at a top school, with a similar difficulty and debt to medical school. There are companies who will only hire you if you got a degree and relevant experience. The big tech companies never mention it but most of the workforce had a long education.

Master's and PhDs in CS are typically not focused primarily on coding skills though. These individuals have a degree and publications that speak primarily to their conceptual expertise, which is important and significant but if the job they're interested in is mostly coding, that's an entirely separate skill. I know CS PhDs who didn't write a single line of code for their thesis.

Going back to the medical analogy, just because someone has a medical degree doesn't mean they're a good surgeon. They'd need additional certification to prove their surgery skills.

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