The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#501

Post by ryandrake » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 7:20 PM UTC

nugget wrote: post #449

reaperducer wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If I hire someone who seems great on paper and turns out to be a dud, then I immediately let them go. If you keep hiring duds, you shouldn't be allowed to hire people. In spite of what the headhunter firms and cookie-cutter websites would have you believe, interviewing and hiring is a skill, not a punchlist. >If a 10 hour project-specific coding task reduces mis-hires by 50%+, isn't it better for both parties? Only…

I've hired about 50 full-time w2 on-site developers over the last decade and maybe 3 or 4 of them were total duds (due to extreme mis-representation of technical skills) once employed. I'm not sure how this ratio compares to others but it certainly seems to be an issue that the industry talks about, so I'd be surprised if it were ultra rare. > Only if you pay me for my ten hours. Otherwise, you've already indicated t…

I agree with your approach. As a junior developer I got my big break by agreeing to join as an hourly contractor while I proved myself, with the hope of being brought on full time should my performance be sufficient. Lucky for me, the company was not lying and they brought me on and the rest is history. We all have heard those horror stories about companies who claim to do the contract-to-hire thing but have no intention to make good on the promise, so this is a risky path for the candidate.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#502

Post by MattyRad » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 7:20 PM UTC

To be the devil's advocate here....

There is such a low barrier to entry for our industry that virtually anyone can can call themselves a software developer after a week of coding exercises, compared to other engineering disciplines which have a very high barrier (mostly in requiring a degree and often difficult certification like the PE). What's worse is that even computer science majors aren't guaranteed to be an effective hire. This is NOT a new problem[1].

Ultimately I would argue that the risk is higher, for a company, of hiring an incapable engineer, than it is for an applicant being hired (and paid) as an incapable engineer.

Requiring an applicant to demonstrate capability is smart. Where we draw the line for how much needs to be demonstrated is what is being questioned here.

[1] https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#503

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 7:22 PM UTC

monocasa wrote: post #434

psyc wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps it's because you insist on testing their ability to live code on the spot as a performance piece, and misinterpreting that as testing their ability to code. If you're turning down someone who wrote space shuttle firmware, because they "can't do fizzbuzz", then you are administering a terrible test and getting a false negative. I have 20 years of industry experience. Everything on my resume is the truth. I've…

> If you're turning down someone who wrote space shuttle firmware, because they "can't do fizzbuzz", then you are administering a terrible test and getting a false negative. Or... large companies, particularly defense, excel at hiding mediocrity in their ranks, and it's easy for someone who produces no or negative work to be handed around rather than fired.

[deleted]

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#504

Post by radarthreat » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 7:22 PM UTC

CodeMage wrote: post #335

majormajor wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a 10 hour project-specific coding task reduces mis-hires by 50%+, isn't it better for both parties? Does this fully replace the onsite? If I'm fully employed, interviewing with three or four places, and expected to take a day off and visit each of them, adding another full day of work on top of each is a big hurdle. To keep going with the devil's advocate: If one of your competitors says "ok based on your initia…

I cannot agree enough. I'm okay with most of the interviewing practices out there, but there has to be some kind of balance between the company's needs and mine. One of the most mind-boggling interviewing processes I've been through went like this: 1. Write a program that satisfies the given requirements. Be sure to use the specified design pattern they explicitly requested. Include a suite of unit tests and instruct…

Wow, there are so many red flags there. You made the right decision to drop out.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#505

Post by ryandrake » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 7:22 PM UTC

bsder wrote: post #483

speby wrote: post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

> So maybe the person shares actual code and walks us through it that they wrote, even if not open source? Again, we can't know for certain it is their own code and not some friend who wrote it for them 2 years ago that they claim is their own. Or was a teammate's, or what-have-you. So we can't count on that either. Then you're not doing a very good walkthrough. I can generally spot someone who didn't write the code…

I remember working with someone like that. He went on to be an amazing salesperson.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#506

Post by maxxxxx » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 7:25 PM UTC

poulsbohemian wrote: post #393

monocasa wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to hate it, but have now performed enough interviews of supposedly senior devs with decades of experience. I've literally seen someone who did firmware for the space shuttle grind for 45 minutes on fizz buzz without making progress. Like, I'd they struggle for ten minutes or so, I take a step back and say "Ok, screw syntax, let's just vaguely talk about what needs to happen and mock up some pseudo code.". Even…

I’m going to show some vulnerability… this happened to me this week. I’m probably like a lot of you here: professional software developer for 20 years, have shipped countless products in multiple languages / technologies. Work has appeared on tv and print media multiple times. Have generated millions and millions in cost savings and revenue for employers and clients. But I totally failed a technical screen. It’s been…

I am sympathetic to this but I have dealt with very senior candidates that could not demonstrate any coherent thought about a given problem over a whole interview. Others don't get code done but at least they can express a clear understanding of the problem and have an intelligent conversation.

I don't care if they can write the code but I want to see some level of engagement with the problem and some understanding.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#507

Post by collyw » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 7:26 PM UTC

aje403 wrote: post #386

trowawee wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know several really, really good programmers with pretty intense anxiety. Automatically ruling them out because of a poorly-formatted interview process would be a big mistake.

So basically hire the guy who, if you tap on his cubicle, will have a heart attack and sue your company? If you hire a pretty girl too, does he forget how to speak english? Why not just hire someone who doesn't have panic attacks too bad to code fizz buzz instead?

You could extend your attitude to any sort of disability couldn't you. Why hire someone in a wheelchair, when there is someone who could walk up the stairs in half the time?

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#508

Post by monocasa » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 7:26 PM UTC

TheGRS wrote: post #486

monocasa wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most senior devs have a family, value work/life balance, and currently have another job. I don't expect them to take their work home past 5 while they're working with me, so why should I expect them to do that before I'm even paying them?

Personally I think it'd be fine to e-mail back and say "sorry I don't have time to work on this with my current schedule, could I do an in-person interview instead?" That's me though, I would hope the rest of the industry is willing to work with people. Even just the response to the e-mail would tell me that they're competent enough to know their time management and that they have limited bandwidth. At some point you…

> Personally I think it'd be fine to e-mail back and say "sorry I don't have time to work on this with my current schedule, could I do an in-person interview instead?"

What happens instead is that you just don't ever hear back from candidate.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#509

Post by gnarcoregrizz » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 7:26 PM UTC

darrylb42 wrote: post #499

gnarcoregrizz wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll use this as an opportunity to vent about agile. It promises developers a larger voice, but in my experience, it heavily favors management and product management types, since they are usually the ones in control of the ticketing/tracking systems. They aren't under the sprint deadlines that developers are, so they are able to better organize and build their cases for what gets done. Even if developers can build a…

My favorite is when I take the time to break something management puts tasks 4, 6, and 10 into the sprint because the hours fit. Disregarding any dependencies or natural order.

Yes, that happens to me often.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#510

Post by kmkemp » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 7:28 PM UTC

monocasa wrote: post #475

TheGRS wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this assertion that the technical interview is inherently filtering out great candidates is being very honest (you responded similarly to another comment of mine the same way). One quality being tested is "can you try to do the thing that we're asking for?" That's a measurement in competence and the willingness to get something done. If said candidate is saying "this test is ridiculous and a waste of my…

Most senior devs have a family, value work/life balance, and currently have another job. I don't expect them to take their work home past 5 while they're working with me, so why should I expect them to do that before I'm even paying them?

Almost too obvious solution: do an initial phone chat to filter qualified candidates into a small pool and then pay your final round of candidates a nice rate to complete a take home project. Bonus points if you can make it something that you can actually use at your company.