The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#651

Post by maxk42 » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:59 PM UTC

exodust wrote: post #629

maxk42 wrote: post #580

This literally happened to me last week. On a Friday night before my girlfriend's birthday they sent me -- without warning -- an assignment that "should take about 8 hours". I told them to give the job to someone hungrier than me which was the politest way of telling someone to stuff it I could think of. The company in question advertises here on HN's "Who's hiring?" threads, but the role was brought to my attention…

But you didn't say how long they gave you to do it. Could you hand in the assignment a week later? I've never been given a homework assignment for a job interview, but I would love it. I absolutely hate the tests they give you on the spot, the last one I did was awful and made me angry! I would much prefer an 8 hour homework assignment. That pressure would be fun, and I get to work with my tools in my comfort zone. I…

They wanted it done by Monday. Then I got to choose which day of my weekend I wanted to sacrifice: I chose none and I'll begin my new position at a company that respects my time Monday.

To be clear: I've been given take-home "challenges" that take 2 - 3 hours each. Including at the company I wound up going with. I have no problem with these. If you expect me to sacrifice a full day of my time then you can pay me or find someone more desperate than I am.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#652

Post by CamperBob2 » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 10:00 PM UTC

natalyarostova wrote: post #41

LandR wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you want to work in a world where all programmers have to be trained, licensed and regulated with the same rigor as surgeons? Uh, yes... There are too many terrible developers out there.

The ability to build a top tier career from self-teaching is remarkable. It would be such a tragedy if this was stripped and replaced with a signalling based equilibrium run and/or structured by the government :(

Very true. These people literally don't know what they're talking about, or what they're asking for. They've thought their plan through about five seconds into the future.

Either that, or they're blatant featherbedders who aren't bothering to disclose their interests.

In neither case do they belong on this site.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#653

Post by itronitron » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 10:00 PM UTC

Mc91 wrote: post #566

tptacek wrote: post #236

I believe the big problem people have with take-home work is trust. Nobody wants to do a take-home assignment that doesn't really impact their prospects of getting a job, or, worse, that has only downside for them. Hiring teams give assignments and then run a standard interview gauntlet. On both sides, most people believe it's the interviewers making the real decisions, without much consultation to the tests. The can…

> Nobody wants to do a take-home assignment that doesn't really impact their prospects of getting a job I spent a few days on one, sent it in and was told that day that they had made an offer to someone who accepted the offer. Then I did another one over the course of a few days which was looked at, but a new VP came in and eliminated the opening. It's similar to asking me to come down for an interview for a few hour…

I provided some sample code recently, it was experimental, rolled-at-home 'research' code that was, I think, in line with the mission of the team I had applied to, complete with test data and instructions. Needless to say, the interviewer didn't want to talk about what the code did but instead grilled me on various technical language details. In some ways it is a great litmus test, because the people I have enjoyed working with in the past would have had endless questions for me about what the code was actually doing...

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#654

Post by s2g » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 10:01 PM UTC

the-pigeon wrote: post #555

psyc wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no shame in it. Same thing happened to me last week, and I was furious about it. I've resolved not to take any more live coding interviews, on the grounds it is uninformative, degrading hazing. We're composers, but we're being tested as if we're live concert pianists. Then companies complain that there's a talent shortage! This hurts everybody, and it needs to stop. For my part, I will refuse to participate a…

> I've resolved not to take any more live coding interviews, on the grounds it is uninformative, degrading hazing. Depends on the job. I'm currently hiring and the live coding exercise is a must for the position because I want to see how the person problem solves while under stress. Because stuff happens. My team works on mission critical systems that can have issues that we sometimes must resolve quickly which is ve…

> Depends on the job.

It doesn't.

> I'm currently hiring and the live coding exercise is a must for the position

It's not.

> because I want to see how the person problem solves while under stress

Why, it's a totally bullshit proposition. The stress of not having memorized some algorithm is not the same kind of stress as a live system going down.

You do it this way because you aren't able to come up with anything better.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#655

Post by uhhhhmmmwhat » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 10:03 PM UTC

This absolute trend of garbage behavior has happened to me for a while now. That mixed with this so called absolute inability for employers to provide feedback because their so called policies do not let them. It is absolutely ridiculous how someone in a position of power is treating others who merely are trying to be part of the ingroup and get a job. This ingroup/outgroup "do these steps, and you will join us" mentality is complete shit. Especially on the part of these so called HR departments which claim they are having such a hard time finding right candidates. Before this jumping through all these hoops crap was invented, companies were hiring fine, people were working fine.

Then these geniuses decided to profit and "flatten the world" as they call it. Just so they can make a buck. https://www.hackerrank.com/aboutus

The only thing that is going to get you is a flat brain. Unable to think creatively, unable to respond to uncertainty but very very good at memorizing solutions to problems.

And all this is based on this ignorant viewpoint that you can observe something or a product for a short period of time and somehow ascertain anything which you can use to form a useful opinion of a candidates future performance. Bullshit!!!

No HR department should be allowed to ask any candidate to do any work without compensation. It is work since the HR department is using this information to make their decision therefore protecting or enhancing their companies performance. I don't know how this is not related work to a companies success.

I am sick of it. I have started to send templated emails in response to them which explain i do not work for free. I can share personal code from past projects or my github.

A few months ago a PR representative even called me once to make sure i was not going to sue when part of the application process was a take home assignment which was asking me to implement a new feature for their actual product. What a sham.

When i said to her "You mean to tell me that over the past years when you claimed that this process has been the same, no interviewer has derived any benefit from free work of past candidates." She didn't even know how to respond.

The more candidates that do not put up with this behavior, the faster it will stop and hopefully move onto something more agreeable by both parties.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#656

Post by 0xADEADBEE » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 10:03 PM UTC

lkrubner wrote: post #334

ModernMech wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a PhD in Computer Science and 10 years in the industry, and I've never not been asked to do some trivial programming task in an interview. Thanks for showing some common sense, but most interviewers are just lazy. One time I couldn't implement a skiplist, and the feedback I got was "we were concerned about your problem solving skills".

Even recently, I've gone to job interview type situations and the interviewer has literally asked me "Do you understand what Object Oriented Programming is? Can you write good quality Object Oriented code?" This despite that my best known essay is titled "Object Oriented Programming Is An Expensive Disaster Which Must End" a fact the interviewer should know if they'd looked at my resume or spent 10 seconds looking up…

I was exposed to this essay really early on in my career and it completely changed how I thought about programming. Thank you so much for writing that; I still link people to it today.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#657

Post by a_imho » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 10:03 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #525

Clubber wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you pay 'market rates,' expect the best applicants to be average.

Yes! If the best thing an employer can come up with to say about their compensation and benefits is that they are “competitive“ this is a huge red flag for any candidate who is (or believes they are) above average.

Thing is with red flags people can see them left and right, but the need to put food on the table and pay the bills results in color blindness fast.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#658

Post by s2g » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 10:04 PM UTC

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #635

poulsbohemian wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m going to show some vulnerability… this happened to me this week. I’m probably like a lot of you here: professional software developer for 20 years, have shipped countless products in multiple languages / technologies. Work has appeared on tv and print media multiple times. Have generated millions and millions in cost savings and revenue for employers and clients. But I totally failed a technical screen. It’s been…

Similar thing happened to me in a Google phone screen with coding exercise. Not sure what happened inside my brain, but I simply froze and couldn't solve a fairly trivial coding problem. That only thing that makes me feel better is that it was a one-time problem.

I did phone screens with google and facebook. Felt like Facebook went kinda bad.

Turned out good enough, went onsite. Failed. Oh well.

Tried again a while later. Failed FB phone screen, got told Google wanted a second. That was the point I said fuck it and cancelled.

shrug

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#659

Post by tzakrajs » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 10:05 PM UTC

user5994461 wrote: post #648

dominotw wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the format at almost every single company these days. 1. Initial phone screen with recuriter - 30 mins 2. Phone screen(s) - 1-4 hr 3. (optional) phone live-coding on coderpad - 1 hr 4. Take home assignment - 4 - 8 hrs 5. Full Day onsite interview - 2-3 days if traveling. Rinse and Repeat for atleast ten interviews minimum you are looking at almost 1 month of pure interview time. Add on practise time for algor…

This is stupid. They should always do the take home test first or after a short phone call. It's easier and saves everyone time.

Part of the interview process is selling the organization and its people. Maybe companies prioritize phone screenings and interviews first to steer the process and educate the candidate about the company and the position. Maybe candidates would be less likely to try the coding project if they hadn't built some rapport with an employee.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#660

Post by ex_amazon_sde » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 10:05 PM UTC

toephu2 wrote: post #568

ModernMech wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a PhD in Computer Science and 10 years in the industry, and I've never not been asked to do some trivial programming task in an interview. Thanks for showing some common sense, but most interviewers are just lazy. One time I couldn't implement a skiplist, and the feedback I got was "we were concerned about your problem solving skills".

As it should have been. The fact that you have a PhD means nothing to Google, Facebook, and the like (except possibly a slightly higher base salary than a new grad w/ only a BS) The question is, can you whiteboard? They will be testing that. If you can, then all is golden and you probably didn't need to waste those 4-6 years getting that PhD because what you will be working on will have nothing to do with your topic…

Me and my colleagues never asked this trivial question when interviewing for Amazon, just like you don't ask a driver what a brake is.