The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#41

Post by natalyarostova » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:09 AM UTC

LandR wrote: post #15

dagw wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm waiting for recruiting doctors like that. Would you want to work in a world where all programmers have to be trained, licensed and regulated with the same rigor as surgeons? Surely the fact that programming is one of the few 'white collar' jobs where someone with no education and no relevant work experience can get hired based purely on the fact that they've taught themselves the necessary skills and can do the j…

> Would you want to work in a world where all programmers have to be trained, licensed and regulated with the same rigor as surgeons? Uh, yes... There are too many terrible developers out there.

The ability to build a top tier career from self-teaching is remarkable. It would be such a tragedy if this was stripped and replaced with a signalling based equilibrium run and/or structured by the government :(

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#42

Post by hvidgaard » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:09 AM UTC

danpalmer wrote: post #30

dosycorp wrote: post #21

I don't want to name names but one YC company I interviewed at left me with the distinct impression that they talked a big game, just to get me to work on one of their (apparently) "strictly-hiring-related toy projects" as homework. Homework, "sure", except it: 1) integrated with a real system, 2) mirrored something they actually did, and 3) they would only agree to proceed if I signed an IP/work contract and accepte…

I don't want to pass judgement on your coding exercise, and it certainly seems fishy with the contract, however... I would point out that on the hiring side, evaluating a submitted project in a way that can differentiate between good and great candidates, and that the reviewers can understand well enough to get the signal they need, is very difficult. Because of this, I know several times we have asked candidates to…

That is fine, just be upfront about it. Still require a contract for it is reeking of trying to get work for "free". If you have it running in production, and use it because you understand it thoroughly, it shouldn't matter what the candidate comes up with. Any new insight he might bring you can always incorporate with your own code. In any case none of the code is expected to be used in production, and if it turns out you want to, it's probably the candidate you want to hire anyway.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#43

Post by xab9 » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:12 AM UTC

For my previous job I spent around a week to build a simple microservice from scratch, with login, jwt, email notification etc. - it's still not a full app of course, but it was very very time consuming (it was a bit out of my field), considering that I did not spend that time with family, hobby et cetera.

I know noone forces me to do it, but back then I really had high hopes for that job. Nowdays the maximum I'm willing to spend with an entry app is two to four days but deep in my heart I still find it a bit too much, but I still prefer this over live coding sessions in front of a bunch of random devs.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#44

Post by danielh » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:14 AM UTC

abhinai wrote: post #24

danielh wrote: post #17

I don't get it. The whole industry is complaining about not being able to hire developers, yet there seems to be some kind of competition who can come up with the most awkward hiring process. Requiring homework is a great way to deter the kind of people companies should be most interested in hiring: those who are not actively looking for a new job. I find this trend especially surprising considering that the U.S. has…

Just that firing someone is legal does not mean it is easy. Especially if you have been working closely with the said person for months. And then there are people who are very nice human beings but their performance just isn't good enough. Firing them is hard and pretty bad for team morale. I'd much rather do that extra work during the hiring process than have to deal with a bad hire later.

Firing someone is always hard, no doubt about it. But I disagree that it's bad for team morale to fire a nice underperformer. In fact, I've seen the opposite happen, where having to drag along a team member was a reason for people leaving.

IMHO, hiring based on homework is no guarantee that you won't end up with a bad hire anyway. It is just another imperfect data point to base your decision on, but one that comes at the cost of massively reducing your number of candidates.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#45

Post by xfz » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:16 AM UTC

It's not new - I did my first assignment around 18 years ago - and it's not necessarily a bad thing if done right.

One problem is that assignments take too long and have over-optimistic estimates, which apart from taking up time can lead to feelings of self-doubt. Feedback on the assignments is lacking to no-existent, and this is an unforgivable sin in my book. Also, anything that looks more like a contribution to their own software than an academic test is a red flag.

The other options noted in the article are also pretty bad. Whiteboards and fibonacci numbers, forget it. "Pair programming" in an interview is deceptive, nothing like normal pairing; it's a test (fair enough, but don't call it pairing). It's also problematic for me because I have a problem with my eyesight and any "accommodation" requested up front tends to be inadequate, leaving me at a disadvantage.

For people with busy lives or family commitments, a short "interview prep homework" of 30-90 minutes would help the person to prepare, in their own time, in a relatively less pressured environment. The interviewer could then expand on this during the interview.

I've done assignments like this where it proved a useful opportunity to brush up on a particular language (if cross-training or coming back from management), sometimes even enjoyed it. Also, it means recruiting is less of a numbers game - you might interview with a handful of companies instead of a dozen, choosing the ones you really care about.

IMHO what we're seeing is a terrible implementation of a reasonable idea.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#46

Post by setquk » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:17 AM UTC

LandR wrote: post #15

dagw wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm waiting for recruiting doctors like that. Would you want to work in a world where all programmers have to be trained, licensed and regulated with the same rigor as surgeons? Surely the fact that programming is one of the few 'white collar' jobs where someone with no education and no relevant work experience can get hired based purely on the fact that they've taught themselves the necessary skills and can do the j…

> Would you want to work in a world where all programmers have to be trained, licensed and regulated with the same rigor as surgeons? Uh, yes... There are too many terrible developers out there.

Yes exactly that. The problem is that anyone can stitch a leg back on. We need people who can stitch the leg back on and the patient not die 3 months later or the leg fall off again.

If you look at other engineering disciplines there are formal structured approaches to education and testing leading to chartered engineers etc. We could really do with the same.

At the moment we have certifications which merely prove that the individual can pass an exam. I can routinely get near 100% on these sorts of test without knowing the subject or having any experience.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#47

Post by icantdrive55 » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:19 AM UTC

danielh wrote: post #17

I don't get it. The whole industry is complaining about not being able to hire developers, yet there seems to be some kind of competition who can come up with the most awkward hiring process. Requiring homework is a great way to deter the kind of people companies should be most interested in hiring: those who are not actively looking for a new job. I find this trend especially surprising considering that the U.S. has…

I imagine it's hard to hire programmers.

When I was younger, I felt a written test should be the only factor in hiring.

If you can pass a very hard test in your speciality(almost any field); you get the job. It's bypasses all the nepotism, and subpar people with seemingly spectacular resumes. It's a fair way of hiring. Plus--there's a lot of diamonds in the mix, who didn't go to fancy schools, but are hungry, and get any job done.

I've given up on that because I have never seen just a test used extensively anywhere, except maybe the armed forces. Then again, George Bush jumped past a few hundred pilots because of his connections.

I'm now down to hire a local applicant for a few weeks. (A local applicant!)

See how they work out. And no--you don't want to drag a guy/woman across the country for a temp job, but hiring someone near the job site seems fair?

If the local does well in a few weeks--they get the job.

I've seen so many companies/entities feel they to hire nationally, and that new exotic employee is just an average dude with a fancy resume. The company stooges are happy because no one got their ego bruised, but the company just hired a foxey resume.

Now I'm thinking about it--there's probally a reason progressive companies make people jump through hoops. I imagine the industry hired too many subpar employees by just looking at the carefully crafted resume.

So, if I was hiring for a large company, I would make them jump through hoops too? Or, try to talk the owner into hiring just on test performance?

After all my rambling, guess spending a weekend, at the library, reading the Cracking the Coding Interview, by Iforgothername is not bad advice?

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#48

Post by gaius » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:21 AM UTC

EliRivers wrote: post #26

abhinai wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just that firing someone is legal does not mean it is easy. Especially if you have been working closely with the said person for months. And then there are people who are very nice human beings but their performance just isn't good enough. Firing them is hard and pretty bad for team morale. I'd much rather do that extra work during the hiring process than have to deal with a bad hire later.

Money where your mouth is; are you willing to pay for it? Would you pay the candidate a reasonable sum, certainly over a hundred Euros a day (after tax etc.) for their pre-interview homework? Given that the cost of a bad hire is orders of magnitude more than that, this seems like a really good deal for the company.

are you willing to pay for it? Would you pay the candidate a reasonable sum

This would be additional income complicating tax, and many companies restrict employees from taking on outside paid work without approval.

No matter how you slice it, these multi-hour homeworks are a stupid idea. And the real reason for them is to discourage candidates to justify getting indentured labour instead. Or to discriminate against older workers with more existing time commitments.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#49

Post by gaius » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:23 AM UTC

xab9 wrote: post #43

For my previous job I spent around a week to build a simple microservice from scratch, with login, jwt, email notification etc. - it's still not a full app of course, but it was very very time consuming (it was a bit out of my field), considering that I did not spend that time with family, hobby et cetera. I know noone forces me to do it, but back then I really had high hopes for that job. Nowdays the maximum I'm wil…

Where do you get 2-4 days to work on an entirely speculative project?

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#50

Post by xab9 » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 10:09 AM UTC

gaius wrote: post #49

xab9 wrote: post #43

For my previous job I spent around a week to build a simple microservice from scratch, with login, jwt, email notification etc. - it's still not a full app of course, but it was very very time consuming (it was a bit out of my field), considering that I did not spend that time with family, hobby et cetera. I know noone forces me to do it, but back then I really had high hopes for that job. Nowdays the maximum I'm wil…

Where do you get 2-4 days to work on an entirely speculative project?

Weekends, plus you may want to take a day off. Otherwise chip it off from your evenings. 7pm to 11pm through a week does the job.