The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#591

Post by lajhsdfkl » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 8:59 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #255

speby wrote: post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

> Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. Agreed. The solution is to not work at a tech company, but instead work in a tech capacity at a real company. - No silly games (before or after hiring). - Better benefits (I'd rather have proper health coverage and a pension than a room full of toys and vaporware stock options). - Immensely more job security (Henry Ford didn't have an "exit strategy"). - Peo…

>Agreed. The solution is to not work at a tech company, but instead work in a tech capacity at a real company.

Ha ok, this is a sure fire way to experience the worst of what the industry has to offer.

>Better benefits (I'd rather have proper health coverage and a pension than a room full of toys and vaporware stock options).

Tech companies have the best benefits period, what "tech" company did you apply for that didn't have health coverage?

Your entire post seems completely detached from reality.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#592

Post by the-pigeon » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:00 PM UTC

donretag wrote: post #167

One big issue that a take home assignment is that it removes the ability for the candidate to ask questions. Interviews are two-way streets. Nowadays, I reject more companies than I interview for based on an initial phone conversation. I have requirements in what I look for in a company and position, and some simple questions help me resolve many of the primary requirements. Given a take home exam, I will have invest…

Also a good interviewer WANTS questions from a candidate. They show that you've actually thought about what it would be like to perform the job and understand what sort of environment you thrive in and thus can filter yourself out if you think it's a bad fit. Because you don't want to waste you time starting and then quitting or being fired a few months down the road.

One of the biggest mistakes I see strong technical candidates make in interviews is not asking any questions at all.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#593

Post by ggggtez » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:00 PM UTC

newobj wrote: post #301

It's unreal that will people will bitch and moan about having to invest a couple days, maybe even a whole week in cramming/prepping/interviewing, to perform on-demand, one time, for a job that realistically will earn them $100k, $200k, $300k, $400k+ a year. Meanwhile people that work harder than us 5 days a week for the entire duration of their career will make 1/2, 1/4, 1/6th, or less of income, with none of the per…

The whole point is that these people DO make $100-$400k+. At the high range, that's $1000 for a day of work. Imagine asking someone "Hi, please give me $1000 application fee for this job." With a whiteboard interview, at least you get to talk to the engineers directly. You could argue a company that is willing to spend it's engineer's time doing hiring is spending more than you are, which is not true for a homework assignment.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#594

Post by lazyasciiart » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:00 PM UTC

nikanj wrote: post #543

ams6110 wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best "work environment" tech job I ever had was at an investment bank. Didn't disrupt anything (quite the opposite) but got great experience with databases, unix, C, scripting, working with internal clients, determining requirements, managing projects, etc. 9:00 - 4:30 daily hours, no nights, no weekends. Full benefits, good salary, good yearly bonus, quiet office, great people who were there to get a job done an…

There's a very strong correlation "you have to dress like an adult", and "you will be treated like an adult". Yes, a lot of adults wear sweatshirts and hoodies now. However, if you wore a shirt and tie to a high school, they would make fun of you for dressing up like your dad. We have collectively agreed on a "grown-up" attire.

In other countries, it's very common for boys to wear a shirt and tie to school. Even here it's part of the uniform at many private schools and some charter schools, and it's the norm for children at formal events. It's not 'grown-up' attire, it's 'serious' attire.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#595

Post by default-kramer » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:00 PM UTC

gshulegaard wrote: post #564

Interesting, I actually prefer take home challenges to the previous trend of whiteboard interviews. And within the realm of take home challenges I prefer ones without time limits which usually implies they are full or multi day assignments. Even with rehearsal I am not a great public speaker and impromptu formats certainly don't make me better. I also prefer take home assignments since it is more closely related to h…

With no time limit, aren't you just optimizing for the candidate with the most free time? (Granted, some people are more efficient than others, but you probably only want to hire from the top band of efficiency anyways. Meaning that "time spent" becomes the primary deciding factor.)

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#596

Post by Arzh » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:02 PM UTC

irq11 wrote: post #428

Arzh wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the other option is to do a small take home test. Are you ok with that?

The other option is to check references, do credential checks, and simple bullshit screens during interviews, like every other professional interview. Literally every other profession has this challenge! Programmers are unique only in their seeming inability to realize that they are not unique. Accountants are not asked to solve double-entry accounting whiteboard problems. Finance professionals are not given take-hom…

I don't see how that is actually doable all the time. In my short career I have moved from embedded c / c++ game engine / full stack / DBA / backend. All at different jobs with the previous manager not knowing I actually knew how to do the next job, if they were asked anything other than generic questions I would have sounded like a fraud.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#597

Post by tastyfreeze » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:02 PM UTC

vonmoltke wrote: post #554

chiefalchemist wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. Working for nothing __is__ obnoxious. Not to belittle anyone but...a plumber is licensed. An electrician is licensed. Even a hair stylist is licensed. Perhaps licensing a programmer / developer / engineer would be over doing it. (Read: Yes, it would be. But the examples do help.) That said, can't there be…

> Not to belittle anyone but...a plumber is licensed. An electrician is licensed. Even a hair stylist is licensed. Shitty plumbers are licensed. Shitty electricians are licensed. Shitty hair stylists are licensed. A license says nothing about current competence. It says the person demonstrated some minimal level of competence at one point, fills out their paperwork every year, and hasn't fucked up royally enough yet…

Fizzbuzz and other interview coding tests are being used to test minimal competence. If a license proves minimal competence it solves this particular problem. Sure, the licensed may be shitty at their job but at least they can do the job.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#598

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:03 PM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #353

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at other fields for examples. Few have to interview like devs do. Other professionals may have continuing education like conferences, but that's not the same. Imagine nurses or docs getting asked to take vitals for an interview.

People have to go through exams and other assessment before they can put the title on their CV. They've been tested multiple times on their ability to 'take vitals' and other basic parts of their job. Anyone can call themselves a software engineer, even if no one has ever tested their ability to reverse a linked list, or solve fizz buzz, or even write 'hello world' in a language of their choice.

[deleted]

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#599

Post by BjoernKW » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:04 PM UTC

Franciscouzo wrote: post #472

BjoernKW wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An informal network of trust (which in fact already exists, it's just that many companies and many engineers don't use it), i.e. personal references, referrals, open source contributions, a project portfolio. Many participants in the game unfortunately insist on hiring and marketing by three-letter acronyms.

And then people that aren't part of that network of trust (like minorities or women) can't get work.

That’s whataboutism.

Is there racial or gender-based inequality? Yes, unfortunately there is.

Should we therefore resign and stop trusting each other altogether? No, we shouldn’t.

We should rather try and extend our trust to others.

Inequality isn’t caused by trust but by a lack of it.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#600

Post by timr » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:04 PM UTC

newobj wrote: post #575

heyoni wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever had to do homework as part of a job application? I ask because in my experience, the companies asking for these tend to be a bit shady. For instance, one company asked me to do this extract/load to Spark and analyze data thing. I did it because their e-mail said that they would reply to each individual with feedback. Guess what? 3 weeks later I get a canned response! Another job assignment took me 4 day…

Yes, for example, I spent two days implementing a typeahead search results system for Etsy, including writing my own ingestion pipeline, map-reduce framework, index builder, and request processor. Of course Etsy already had their own stuff, this was just a toy done in Java. It was fun. Got offered the job but didn't take it for personal reasons that cropped up concurrent w/ the interview process.

"I spent two days implementing a typeahead search results system for Etsy, including writing my own ingestion pipeline, map-reduce framework, index builder, and request processor."

Seriously? You did all of that? For a take-home interview problem?? Oy. This is why companies get away with this crap...

I'm going to say something harsh, but you really need to hear it: you failed at your number one responsibilty. It doesn't matter that you enjoyed the project or got the job. You need to maintain some level of professional self-respect in these situations. Professionals don't give away their time for free.

If Etsy asked you to do this, they were being abusive. If you did it because you enjoyed it, you signaled to them that you're desperate for the job, not very busy with other interviews, or willing to do work for very little in return. Or some combination thereof. None of these are great signals to send when you want to be treated with respect, and catastrophic signals to send when it's time to negotiate salary. Your time is not worthless.