The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#281

Post by frenchie14 » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:51 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #270

speby wrote: post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

> we don't really have a way to de-facto verify that the person can do what they say they can do We do, it's called the probationary period. 30 or 60 days, or even a bit more. If the person isn't working out, or is not a good "fit" you can say goodbye. And it goes both ways. Candidates might find that the actual work or work environment is not what was portrayed in the recruitment process. If they don't like your com…

Scenario: you have two offers on hand. One offer is for a full time position. The other is for "let's see how the next one to two months goes and then we'll decide if you still have a job or not." Which do you pick? All things being equal, the first offer carries significantly less risk as an employee and is clearly the better choice. If you're an employer who really wants to hire engineers, why would you give an offer that will automatically filter out a large portion of qualified candidates?

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#282

Post by minimaxir » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:51 PM UTC

rhapsodic wrote: post #269

minimaxir wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would never do a homework project as the first step in an application process. I would do one as the last step, after I had learned enough about the job and the company to decide that I really wanted it, and they had narrowed down the field to me and a handful of other candidates. When I was job hunting last year, the steps typically went like this. 1) 30 min phone call 2) Homework 3) Algorithm Exam 4) Onsite I t…

>I typically got rejected at #3 which means the homework meant nothing. It got you to step #3, but if I were applying to that company, I would not have done the homework. When they told me of the homework assignment, I would have asked, "assuming I do it, what comes next?" And when they replied "an algorithm exam, followed by an onsite interview", my reply would have been, "homework is the last step, or no thank you.…

In disclosure, all the companies were upfront about the full interview process. That said, in this job market, there isn't much leverage to say no to a prospective job or to make demands of the interview process unless you're already a rockstar.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#283

Post by reaperducer » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:52 PM UTC

mywacaday wrote: post #234

colordrops wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you prefer? Some sort of rating or ranking system based off of objective standards?

I'm sure there's a blockchain solution out there somewhere (half-joking)

>I'm sure there's a blockchain solution out there somewhere

Don't be silly. GPDR is going to save the world, solve all of the internet's problems and bake you nice warm croissants in the morning.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#284

Post by ams6110 » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:53 PM UTC

teachrdan wrote: post #265

reaperducer wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. Agreed. The solution is to not work at a tech company, but instead work in a tech capacity at a real company. - No silly games (before or after hiring). - Better benefits (I'd rather have proper health coverage and a pension than a room full of toys and vaporware stock options). - Immensely more job security (Henry Ford didn't have an "exit strategy"). - Peo…

Real talk? I'd be concerned that, at a non-tech company, I'd be seen as a IT rather than a software engineer. And the conventional wisdom goes that IT is a cost center. Some of the best career advice I've ever gleaned is to work on something that visibly makes money for the company. I get to do that every day at my tech company. I don't know that I could say that if I worked in a technical capacity in another industr…

The best "work environment" tech job I ever had was at an investment bank. Didn't disrupt anything (quite the opposite) but got great experience with databases, unix, C, scripting, working with internal clients, determining requirements, managing projects, etc.

9:00 - 4:30 daily hours, no nights, no weekends. Full benefits, good salary, good yearly bonus, quiet office, great people who were there to get a job done and then go home.

Had to wear a shirt and tie but that's not the worst thing in the world.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#285

Post by ModernMech » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:53 PM UTC

bearforcenine wrote: post #277

ams6110 wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we don't really have a way to de-facto verify that the person can do what they say they can do We do, it's called the probationary period. 30 or 60 days, or even a bit more. If the person isn't working out, or is not a good "fit" you can say goodbye. And it goes both ways. Candidates might find that the actual work or work environment is not what was portrayed in the recruitment process. If they don't like your com…

What do I do when I quit my current job, move across the country, and then get fired 30 days later? I would likely never accept an offer at a company that tells me up front there is a good chance I will be let go in 30 or 60 days.

You run that risk with any assignment that's at will, whether it's explicitly stated or not.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#286

Post by firstplacelast » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:54 PM UTC

dsr_ wrote: post #117

always_good wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how much of the shortage is due to there only being a relatively small portion of jobs that developers actually want. Every time I've worked at a small company that had obvious perks (using a cool language, building a cool product), we had a bunch of applicants to pick from. We could be picky. But the few times I worked at a company on soul-sucking work like internal legacy tools in VBScript for a non-tech c…

I never see a shortage of people applying. I usually see a great shortage of people I want to hire. Mid-level position, asking for 5 years of related experience? 85% of the resumes have no related experience. Fresh out of school, that is. The virtual pile gets much shorter when minimal criteria are applied.

That's probably because the rest of the job posting doesn't sound that difficult.

And you may even say you want "rock stars", completely forgetting that actual rock stars don't need 5 years of experience to do an exemplary job with a new tech stack.

Most job postings are complete BS, cut through that and the quality of candidates will likely improve.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#287

Post by gravyboat » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:54 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #29

dosycorp wrote: post #21

I don't want to name names but one YC company I interviewed at left me with the distinct impression that they talked a big game, just to get me to work on one of their (apparently) "strictly-hiring-related toy projects" as homework. Homework, "sure", except it: 1) integrated with a real system, 2) mirrored something they actually did, and 3) they would only agree to proceed if I signed an IP/work contract and accepte…

I have noticed a trend of not naming companies here. Is it against the rules? I fell that we should name and shame companies that are disrespectful of peoples time.

I've had multiple comments detached (as you can see by my comment history) for calling out companies that suck to apply for in the monthly hiring threads. Either the people who posted must have complained so they removed it, or HN doesn't want people to know some companies suck to deal with when it comes to hiring process.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#288

Post by reaperducer » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:55 PM UTC

teachrdan wrote: post #265

reaperducer wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. Agreed. The solution is to not work at a tech company, but instead work in a tech capacity at a real company. - No silly games (before or after hiring). - Better benefits (I'd rather have proper health coverage and a pension than a room full of toys and vaporware stock options). - Immensely more job security (Henry Ford didn't have an "exit strategy"). - Peo…

Real talk? I'd be concerned that, at a non-tech company, I'd be seen as a IT rather than a software engineer. And the conventional wisdom goes that IT is a cost center. Some of the best career advice I've ever gleaned is to work on something that visibly makes money for the company. I get to do that every day at my tech company. I don't know that I could say that if I worked in a technical capacity in another industr…

> I'd be concerned that, at a non-tech company, I'd be seen as a IT rather than a software engineer.

Depends on the company. Where I am, IT is in charge of maintaining the computers and networks so that the software developers can develop software in and for other departments.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#289

Post by jandrese » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:55 PM UTC

gowld wrote: post #174

jandrese wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, such an employer usually can't get a H1B these days. Which is probably for the best because those people were probably not completely truthful when they described their tech experience. There is also an filtering effect on job sites where good jobs get snapped up right away and disappear from the site, while delusional prospects concentrate over time, causing people to think that those sites have nothing…

Bingo! Where are all the good employees? They have jobs. Where are all the good jobs? They have employees.

The same thing happens to the dating pool as you get older.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#290

Post by bearforcenine » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:56 PM UTC

Clubber wrote: post #280

bearforcenine wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do I do when I quit my current job, move across the country, and then get fired 30 days later? I would likely never accept an offer at a company that tells me up front there is a good chance I will be let go in 30 or 60 days.

There is only a good chance if you misrepresented your abilities and aren't able to get up to speed in 30-90 days. If that is the case, you deserve to be let go.

Is it, though? There are so many other ways that someone might not be a good "fit." Maybe you found another, slightly better candidate who is willing to accept a lower offer. Maybe a manager or individual contributor feels that their position is threatened by the candidate. Maybe they don't attend weekly happy hour.