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The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

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Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#411

Post by NTDF9 »

RickS wrote: post #14
NTDF9 wrote: post #3

Can someone explain why we need: 1. A phone coding interview (Potentially another phone coding interview) 2. A homework 3. An onsite with 5 rounds Seriously, what does that additional tree traversal round prove?

I don't necessarily buy fully into all of these (I am in favor of homeworks, but they should be paid and later staged [this usually means more phone screens. can't win em all]). But since you asked: 1) because meaningfully large swaths of applicants are too stupid to fizzbuzz 2) because passing fizzbuzz is not the same as writing software 3) because teams are comprised of many people in many roles and just because te…

I will respond:

1) I don't get fizzbuzz in first coding rounds anymore. It's usually graphs

2) Ok. I write software. Your whole team can go take a look at my software. Done coding?

3) Ok, so the last on-site round should be meet and greet then? Because I already submitted my code before. You guys all should have looked at the code and agreed to bring me on-site and just meet me. Why ask me to traverse trees again?

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#412

Post by Arzh »

Clubber wrote: post #407
Arzh wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the other option is to do a small take home test. Are you ok with that?

The other, other option is just refuse to do either. I get all my work from friends I've worked with in the last 20 or so years. I mean if a company insists on these hiring practices, and they continue to get bad applications because of it, the probably aren't going to be around for long anyway.

Ok so you are out of the running for this, this is obviously for testing people you have never met before.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#413

Post by Clubber »

monocasa wrote: post #402
pwthornton wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have to separate whether or not someone doesn't know how to do a job from whether someone doesn't know how to interview. This is one of the biggest things I try to guard against. Some people just interview better than a lot of other people, but that doesn't mean they do anything other than interview well.

Oh totally. Fizz Buzz shouldn't take you the whole 45 minutes, so the remainder is just a conversation where I dig down in their experience on a hunt for bullshit.

I think FizzBuzz is about as hard as I would make a technical interview. Maybe some basic questions about database design; what's an index; what's an array, etc. The dig down and hunt for bullshit is the most effective way for a tech person to interview another tech person in my opinion.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#414

Post by monksy »

gnarcoregrizz wrote: post #379
monksy wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure its just the recruiting side. We're seeing some concerning positions in the market: 1. Expectation of long work hours (Frequent and short deadlines due to agile) 2. Micromanagment being the standard (agile) 3. Terrible environments (open desk/office) 4. Removal of vacation time (unlimited PTO means you have no vacation days)

I'll use this as an opportunity to vent about agile. It promises developers a larger voice, but in my experience, it heavily favors management and product management types, since they are usually the ones in control of the ticketing/tracking systems. They aren't under the sprint deadlines that developers are, so they are able to better organize and build their cases for what gets done. Even if developers can build a…

The deadlines are completely unrealistic because they are so divorced from the actual planning and design of the feature being delivered.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#415

Post by newnewpdro »

aje403 wrote: post #348
newnewpdro wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which may have proven nothing more than this person was too nervous to function.

If you've been coding for 30 years and you get too nervous to write fizzbuzz when talking to people, that doesn't mean they should hire you, that means you either have personal life problems going on or you need to see a psychologist

Historically, and if we're talking about someone with 30 years programming experience, this history is very relevant - programming has been a popular field for smart but antisocial/unsocialized nerds who had very few if any friends growing up and have spent much of their life alone at a computer.

For a person with that background, simply sharing a relatively small private room with a total stranger can be overwhelming. It doesn't matter what trivial test you're giving them, if they're not able to think. The test is failing to actually determine if the person can do the technical part of the job, instead it's testing how the person performs in close quarters shared with unfamiliar people.

The whole giving homework for technical vetting is a great way to get around this class of problems.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#416

Post by jstarfish »

djsumdog wrote: post #249
vinceguidry wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An offer of payment does not make silly time commitments palatable for me. I already have a job. If I wanted more cash, I'd just moonlight.

If I was being given a code challenge/take-home, I'd be more inclined to do it if it came with payment. Even if it's trivial, like $200. That's a small price to pay in screening and it at least shows the company believes your time is valuable.

A lot of companies will reimburse you for travel and lodging where applicable during the interview stage. It's not a far stretch to think that they should do the same if they are having you do actual work on your own time, also during the interviewing process.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#417

Post by Arzh »

psyc wrote: post #400
Arzh wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the other option is to do a small take home test. Are you ok with that?

Yes. I strongly prefer an offline test, if it realistically wouldn't take more than a few hours.

Yeah we try to have a limit of 4 hours for this kinda thing. We understand that it is the interviewee's free time but when you need to screen 12 people for a job it is not worth a Senior Engineers time for a small startup.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#418

Post by jasonvm »

cozicoolmail wrote: post #214
donretag wrote: post #167

One big issue that a take home assignment is that it removes the ability for the candidate to ask questions. Interviews are two-way streets. Nowadays, I reject more companies than I interview for based on an initial phone conversation. I have requirements in what I look for in a company and position, and some simple questions help me resolve many of the primary requirements. Given a take home exam, I will have invest…

At my current job (where i've interviewed candidates) we give out a take home assignment, but we explicitly enforce a 2 hour time limit to do it. We felt this was reasonable because combined with an onsite interview and a phone screen, the total amount of time a candidate would spend interviewing for a position is about 8 hours (a typical workday). I'm not against take home assignments per se - but 3 day assignments…

I think this is the best approach. You get the opportunity to do exactly what the job expects, without the pressure of having to manage communication with someone breathing down your neck. A savvy employer can extrapolate what you're able to produce over 2 hours to whatever project they'd have you work on.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#419

Post by Clubber »

stupidcar wrote: post #247
speby wrote: post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

The hiring process is a response to the fact that employers cannot trust a single word candidates say about their experience. This isn't paranoia. Literally, most candidates we see cannot code, even when they supposed have a decade or more of industry experience. If the industry wasn't so full of lying incompetents, it wouldn't be an issue.

Yes but you can tell the difference without a whiteboard or take home test, right?

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#420

Post by SilasX »

ams6110 wrote: post #284
teachrdan wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real talk? I'd be concerned that, at a non-tech company, I'd be seen as a IT rather than a software engineer. And the conventional wisdom goes that IT is a cost center. Some of the best career advice I've ever gleaned is to work on something that visibly makes money for the company. I get to do that every day at my tech company. I don't know that I could say that if I worked in a technical capacity in another industr…

The best "work environment" tech job I ever had was at an investment bank. Didn't disrupt anything (quite the opposite) but got great experience with databases, unix, C, scripting, working with internal clients, determining requirements, managing projects, etc. 9:00 - 4:30 daily hours, no nights, no weekends. Full benefits, good salary, good yearly bonus, quiet office, great people who were there to get a job done an…

Interesting! How would you recommend someone transition from a startup-y job to one of those? Anything they look for in terms of qualifications?
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