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Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

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Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#211
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something along the lines of "The Software shall be used for Good, not Evil"? ;) https://tanguy.ortolo.eu/blog/article46/json-license

When I was at IBM the story about IBM legal asking for permission to use JSLint for evil was a classic. The original post appears to be dead, but https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5138866 discusses it.

The Internet Archive has an archived copy of the blog post, which links to the original source at

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C-JoyNuQJs&feature=player_d...

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FOIAs are not made to companies, they are made to government entities. But yes, of course you can make FOIA requests to government entities we work with (the law guarantees you this privilege), and about the work we do with them -- reporters do this all the time. In some of the more liberal countries the things we do with the government are even part of public record and you can find contracts and services we provide…

Yep, and they get squashed for "national security" reasons because learning how gangbangers are tracked will also let the $current_enemy_in_the_war_on_terror know how they are being selected for drone strikes.

People FOIA palantir related contract successfully all the time, esp. in local law enforcement. If you try to FOIA certain other government institutions, then yes, you might get that answer.

Of course palantir has no input on that in any way. Certain government agencies and activities are excepted from FOIA (and for very good reasons), but if you think it should not be that way (or that the rules should be different) then you should take political action.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#213
post #12

Is this really surprising? Palantir's value comes from its data not that god awful interface it has.

Really? Because others have frequently claimed the opposite -- that it is a visualization company with the insight to focus on lucrative government contracts. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14674460

I'm just speaking from my interactions with their platform during my time as a govie. I don't disagree with what you are saying, they definitely capitalized on gov contracts in this space; I should have been clearer with my statement. For groups that know their data well, they tend to push for custom features from Palantir in lieu of developers resulting in some crap shoot interfaces.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#214
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You raise several good points, but a few clarifications here: - In our software that we deploy to police departments, generally the origin of any piece of information is tracked, as well as when it was entered and by who. The intention with this is to prevent this (and other) kinds of abuse. Malicious users can still abuse the system and do a parallel construction e.g. outside of our system or maybe in a way that the…

> Ultimately trust in the government and that law enforcement (in the various shapes and forms it comes in) is a force for good and prevents many bad things from happening every single day, is at the heart of the palantir philosophy. This is disingenuous at best this is a tool for surveillance and its misuse in public life is more obvious than the advantages it might bring. People will naturally distrust a government…

It is unclear to me what you are saying here. It is well-known fact (amongst the intelligence community) that our software has been used to save tens of thousands of lifes, prevent hundreds (thousands?) of terrorist attacks, saved billions of dollar in fraud etc. In terms of most of the kind of projects governments do in an attempt to prevent {crime,fraud,terrorism,...}, on a scale for how much bang you get for your buck (where 'buck' might be how much data collection you have to do), I think you won't find many other alternatives that compare favourably. (But then, I might be biased, of course.) In fact, as I described in many agencies the situation actually drastically improves once they start using palantir software, since they already had all the data all along, but weren't properly using it as the law intends them to.

Everyone knows the various forms of law enforcement perform some measure of (and have to, to do their job) surveillance. That ranges from e.g. ALPR cameras to patrolling the streets of some city. Most people agree that this is a perfectly acceptable thing. Do you think instead the police should be abolished? Or stripped of their investigative or enforcing power? I don't think most people would actually enjoy living in whatever society would result from this.

Of course the exact boundaries of what is acceptable and what is not should be fiercely debated.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You bring up a good point. Palantir is not just mining public data, but also organizing data that law enforcement provides to them (like license plate readings). But if law enforcement already has that data, is the problem that Palantir organizes it, or that law enforcement collects it in the first place?

I think you may have causality reversed. Without Palantir, law enforcement would not only have no use for the data, it probably wouldn't be able to even collect it in a meaningful sense, in terms of technical and financial resources. Palantir goes to the agency and says, "Give us data and we'll give you "actionable intelligence". You know, back in the 90s and early 2000s, the term "data mining" was perjorative. Finan…

This is not in the least accurate...

1) yes, the LE do already have the data. 2) agencies don't 'give' data to palantir, law enforcement data almost always lives in air-gapped environments it cannot leave in any way (or only in highly restricted ways) 3) we don't 'give' actionable intelligence, we just provide tools for analysts to generate such data. Palantir is a company of software engineers, not of intelligence analysts.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I certainly wouldn't be able to live with myself if I knew I was writing software with the explicit purpose of being able to track down rebels in Yemen, catch illegal immigrants, and violate the constitutional rights of millions of Americans. Perhaps open-source licenses should explicitly exclude use in certain applications. Even if not legally enforceable, it would serve as a constant reminder to developers who DO…

Reminds me of how Google bans its employees from using code released under certain licenses: https://opensource.google.com/docs/thirdparty/licenses/#bann... I wonder if Palantir has any similar policies?

I find it interesting that Google seems to allow GPL (though they ban AGPL). I know at many companies the GPL is an anathema that would be the first entry on a list like this one.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#217

I'm much less concerned with Palantir being used internally by corporations to detect information leaks (although in practice this also means it will be used to quash whistleblowers), since that's at least a viable use for their technology. And it's good that Palantir is pivoting towards less invasive applications of their technology such as supply chain tracking. But the article touches on the biggest issue with Pal…

Thiel is an exercise in contradiction. "In his view, the best way to avoid such scenarios in the future would be to provide the government the most cutting-edge technology possible and build in policing systems to make sure investigators use it lawfully." Prevent the police state by building the police state.

Is it really? I think what he's trying to say is that we should have tools powerful enough to let the Government find/track people efficiently and correctly as long as there is a lawful reason for doing so. Its similar to the weak crypto arguments where Govt. agencies argue they should be able to break crypto protocols via a backdoor when there is a lawful reason to do so.

That being said: the PATRIOT act and NSA's PRISM program have shown just how blatantly the US Govt. can abuse individual privacy and rights so I don't think its a good idea. Weak crypto using backdoors is just a terrible idea period.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the logic make sense in principle even though in practice it wouldn't work that way.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#218
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ultimately trust in the government and that law enforcement (in the various shapes and forms it comes in) is a force for good and prevents many bad things from happening every single day, is at the heart of the palantir philosophy. This is disingenuous at best this is a tool for surveillance and its misuse in public life is more obvious than the advantages it might bring. People will naturally distrust a government…

It is unclear to me what you are saying here. It is well-known fact (amongst the intelligence community) that our software has been used to save tens of thousands of lifes, prevent hundreds (thousands?) of terrorist attacks, saved billions of dollar in fraud etc. In terms of most of the kind of projects governments do in an attempt to prevent {crime,fraud,terrorism,...}, on a scale for how much bang you get for your…

> Of course the exact boundaries of what is acceptable and what is not should be fiercely debated.

What makes most people uneasy, and especially those of us who work in tech, is that many police departments and 3 letter agencies have routinely abused the trust that people put in them. If you want the citizenry to have trust and faith in law enforcement, they have to demonstrate a desire to not break constitutional rights when they deem fit to do so.

I genuinely don't understand why these agencies wouldn't try to build a good relationship with the citizenry they are supposed to be protecting. It often seems like we live in a very dangerous society and everything we say or do is being monitored by someone and may be used maliciously. That itself is a very terrible thing to live with.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let met get this right you ae cool with "corporations" doing this with zero oversight but not with law enforcement and TLA's who have at least some legal oversight. Are you are also cool with companies in the past hiring pinkertons to kill people also - because that's where your argument is leading.

The difference is that corporations closely monitor only their own employees while Palantir closely monitors EVERYBODY. Corporations take an interest in tracking people only to stratify them into groups suited to specific ad strategies. The worst their errors will do is pepper your browser and email with bad ads. Not so with Palantir when their tracking data can misguide police departments, credit agencies, and even…

Palantir doesn't really _do_ anything. They don't collect the data, just save time/man-hours spent processing it. If that's your stance, Oracle/IBM are just as evil because they also sell to police departments to enable analysis.

Facebook on the other hand is actively collecting the data. Without Facebook that database does not exist. In my mind that makes them far worse.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#220
Ignoring the enormous argument over whether what I am about to say is legal in the US/America's particularly constructed law...

Is it time to consider whether companies who's primary business is the collection, summation, synthesis, and re purposing of information should be defacto illegal?

Its not that having the government do this is meaningfully better, but I'm convinced that is a better overall path. The public seem more afraid and more willing to engage in a more serious discussion over ethics. At the very least, it would enable the public to have more oversight over how such data is collected, stored, embargoed (or not), and used. The level of abstraction and fuzzing that is allowed by allowing a non-governmental entity like Palantir or Facebook to have (whether as a collector or aggregator) the data and governments be only a user seems too difficult to regulate and even have a transparent discussion about because claims of national security and secrecy are nested within claims of trade secret and intellectual property in ways that create a moat around effective oversight.

So seriously...if we made this business model illegal, what do we lose? What exceptions would need to exist?

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