Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens • Hacker News Board

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#201

Post by randcraw » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:56 PM UTC

walshemj wrote: post #191

opportune wrote: post #42

I'm much less concerned with Palantir being used internally by corporations to detect information leaks (although in practice this also means it will be used to quash whistleblowers), since that's at least a viable use for their technology. And it's good that Palantir is pivoting towards less invasive applications of their technology such as supply chain tracking. But the article touches on the biggest issue with Pal…

Let met get this right you ae cool with "corporations" doing this with zero oversight but not with law enforcement and TLA's who have at least some legal oversight. Are you are also cool with companies in the past hiring pinkertons to kill people also - because that's where your argument is leading.

The difference is that corporations closely monitor only their own employees while Palantir closely monitors EVERYBODY.

Corporations take an interest in tracking people only to stratify them into groups suited to specific ad strategies. The worst their errors will do is pepper your browser and email with bad ads.

Not so with Palantir when their tracking data can misguide police departments, credit agencies, and even your employer into making your life a living hell. Surely any company with that much power must be held MUCH more accountable than they are now.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#202

Post by nunya213 » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:57 PM UTC

opportune wrote: post #42

I'm much less concerned with Palantir being used internally by corporations to detect information leaks (although in practice this also means it will be used to quash whistleblowers), since that's at least a viable use for their technology. And it's good that Palantir is pivoting towards less invasive applications of their technology such as supply chain tracking. But the article touches on the biggest issue with Pal…

Thiel is an exercise in contradiction. "In his view, the best way to avoid such scenarios in the future would be to provide the government the most cutting-edge technology possible and build in policing systems to make sure investigators use it lawfully."

Prevent the police state by building the police state.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#203

Post by randcraw » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:59 PM UTC

nunya213 wrote: post #202

opportune wrote: post #42

I'm much less concerned with Palantir being used internally by corporations to detect information leaks (although in practice this also means it will be used to quash whistleblowers), since that's at least a viable use for their technology. And it's good that Palantir is pivoting towards less invasive applications of their technology such as supply chain tracking. But the article touches on the biggest issue with Pal…

Thiel is an exercise in contradiction. "In his view, the best way to avoid such scenarios in the future would be to provide the government the most cutting-edge technology possible and build in policing systems to make sure investigators use it lawfully." Prevent the police state by building the police state.

And then hire Palantir to monitor the police as well.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#204

Post by amelius » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:00 PM UTC

currysausage wrote: post #196

amelius wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I certainly wouldn't be able to live with myself if I knew I was writing software with the explicit purpose of being able to track down rebels in Yemen, catch illegal immigrants, and violate the constitutional rights of millions of Americans. Perhaps open-source licenses should explicitly exclude use in certain applications. Even if not legally enforceable, it would serve as a constant reminder to developers who DO…

Something along the lines of "The Software shall be used for Good, not Evil"? ;) https://tanguy.ortolo.eu/blog/article46/json-license

s/shall/should rather/

This raises some good points, but that was to be expected as licenses are a tricky business.

I do think our profession needs more awareness of ethics, and a usage suggestion (rather than an order) in the license of software may be a good start.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#205

Post by Latty » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:06 PM UTC

currysausage wrote: post #196

amelius wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I certainly wouldn't be able to live with myself if I knew I was writing software with the explicit purpose of being able to track down rebels in Yemen, catch illegal immigrants, and violate the constitutional rights of millions of Americans. Perhaps open-source licenses should explicitly exclude use in certain applications. Even if not legally enforceable, it would serve as a constant reminder to developers who DO…

Something along the lines of "The Software shall be used for Good, not Evil"? ;) https://tanguy.ortolo.eu/blog/article46/json-license

When I was at IBM the story about IBM legal asking for permission to use JSLint for evil was a classic. The original post appears to be dead, but https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5138866 discusses it.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#206

Post by UncleEntity » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:10 PM UTC

GyYZTfWBfQw wrote: post #23

jondiggsit wrote: post #11

I’ve always thought - I don’t care if the NSA is spying on US citizens because their job is national security. The problem is when those tools trickle down. All of a sudden you have a local cop with too much time on their hands spying on you. But if you’re not doing anything wrong, you shouldn’t have anything to hide, right? Isn’t that how the saying goes?

> But if you’re not doing anything wrong, you shouldn’t have anything to hide, right? Isn’t that how the saying goes? The problem is that "wrong" can be anything arbitrary, and what's not "wrong" today, it can be "wrong" tomorrow, however arbitrary it is. Somewhere it is wrong (illegal) to call someone a "n*zi", even online. Also anyone who tells me that they have nothing to hide, I ask for their password. For some r…

> The problem is that "wrong" can be anything arbitrary, and what's not "wrong" today, it can be "wrong" tomorrow, however arbitrary it is.

(Un)fortunately you can't be prosecuted for crimes which were not illegal at the time of the offence.

Of course this doesn't take into account activities retroactively deemed "wrong" by The Great Twitter Mob which can have some serious effect on your livelihood because you made a Richard Gere gerbil joke some 20 years ago.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#207

Post by sincerely » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:14 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #186

opportune wrote: post #42

I'm much less concerned with Palantir being used internally by corporations to detect information leaks (although in practice this also means it will be used to quash whistleblowers), since that's at least a viable use for their technology. And it's good that Palantir is pivoting towards less invasive applications of their technology such as supply chain tracking. But the article touches on the biggest issue with Pal…

> I certainly wouldn't be able to live with myself if I knew I was writing software with the explicit purpose of being able to track down rebels in Yemen, catch illegal immigrants, and violate the constitutional rights of millions of Americans. Perhaps open-source licenses should explicitly exclude use in certain applications. Even if not legally enforceable, it would serve as a constant reminder to developers who DO…

Reminds me of how Google bans its employees from using code released under certain licenses: https://opensource.google.com/docs/thirdparty/licenses/#bann...

I wonder if Palantir has any similar policies?

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#208

Post by xpaqui » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:16 PM UTC

RedTennisRacket wrote: post #174

opportune wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Law enforcement uses dragnet warrantless surveillance to gather data (such as who is calling whom, who is in physical proximity with whom). That data is loaded into Palantir's software. Law enforcement uses that data to acquire admissible evidence of the perpetrators' crimes. This is the crucial step, because although the original evidence couldn't be admissible in court due to its collection without a warrant, it ca…

You raise several good points, but a few clarifications here: - In our software that we deploy to police departments, generally the origin of any piece of information is tracked, as well as when it was entered and by who. The intention with this is to prevent this (and other) kinds of abuse. Malicious users can still abuse the system and do a parallel construction e.g. outside of our system or maybe in a way that the…

> Ultimately trust in the government and that law enforcement (in the various shapes and forms it comes in) is a force for good and prevents many bad things from happening every single day, is at the heart of the palantir philosophy.

This is disingenuous at best this is a tool for surveillance and its misuse in public life is more obvious than the advantages it might bring. People will naturally distrust a government that spies on them constantly and that has nothing to do with good or bad government.

There is an episode of black mirror on the mother who surveils her daughter constantly if the mother is good why do we feel disgusted by her attitude?

I applauded apple for publicly denying the government a backdoor in their phones.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#209

Post by Wohlf » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:21 PM UTC

your-nanny wrote: post #85

atom-morgan wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do question his commitment to freedom. But a misogynist?

I base my assertion on sentiments he has expressed, one if which was quoted in the Bloomberg article: >The 1920s was the last time one could feel “genuinely optimistic” about American democracy, he said; since then, “the vast increase in welfare beneficiaries and the extension of the franchise to women—two constituencies that are notoriously tough for libertarians—have rendered the notion of ‘capitalist democracy’ in…

That's definitely an eyebrow raising quote, but I'm pretty sure he meant it the opposite way it's being taken. He's fine with the franchise being extended, he wants those groups to have more libertarians. It's the same thing as Democrats trying to make it easier to vote, people who vote less or have a harder time voting tend to vote Democrat.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#210

Post by xpaqui » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:21 PM UTC

blitmap wrote: post #172

chii wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the warrantless surveillance includes information such as the time and place of where you plan to commit a crime, law enforcement can stop you for a random check on the way there, giving them actual evidence for prosecution. why is that a bad thing? If the crime is victimless (such as any drug usage "crime"), then the issue isn't with the police, but with the state defining what "crime" is, and that definition d…

There was no probable cause for you to be under surveillance prior to the "random" stop.

Some people just get more randomly selected than others, a lot more.