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Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

businessinsider.com

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Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#21

Post by patrickthebold »

dandare wrote: post #7

There are two problems with universal basic income: 1/ Many people think UBI is a great idea but everybody imagines something else. This makes discussing UBI very difficult. 2/ Regardless of what version of UBI you personally support, it is probably not a good idea to give money to those who don't need it. Sooner or later people will realize that what they really want is tax/benefit reform, not universal basic income…

The US gives social security to nearly everyone, including people who "don't need it".

This was intentional. The idea being it's harder to take away a benefit that everyone enjoys, and fairly easy to take away benefits solely for "the poor".

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#22

Post by easytiger »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #12

These experiments confuse me. Haven't we already seen the result of UBI? Pensions, states that issue money (from state oil income etc), allowances, annuities? The world doesn't come to an end; the people don't all become listless and stop contributing. The currency doesn't inflate uncontrollably; prices don't change at all. The cost of living is unchanged (because economics doesn't work that way). All the FUD produce…

> Haven't we already seen the result of UBI?

Nope.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#23

Post by magduf »

praha14 wrote: post #4

I understand the argument that, once free from work, a number of people will voluntarily choose to work as physicists or playwrights or mathematicians. What I haven’t understood, though, is why someone would choose to work as a bricklayer or spend their 20s sitting in a fluorescent office designing an industrial process to make ball-bearing lubricant 0.4% more efficient. It’s that sort of menial, unglamorous labor th…

That's because, for some strange reason, you're confusing UBI with some idealized form of communism.

UBI is Universal Basic Income. The keyword here is "basic". If you sit on your ass and collect UBI, you should receive enough money to let you live in a crappy apartment with roommates, and get some crappy food to eat at the local crappy grocery store. Do you want to live in a crappy apartment with roommates, and not be able to afford to eat at a nice restaurant? Me neither. If you want extra luxuries, you have to work more, to make more money. That's UBI in a nutshell.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#24

Post by dandare »

magduf wrote: post #20
dandare wrote: post #7

There are two problems with universal basic income: 1/ Many people think UBI is a great idea but everybody imagines something else. This makes discussing UBI very difficult. 2/ Regardless of what version of UBI you personally support, it is probably not a good idea to give money to those who don't need it. Sooner or later people will realize that what they really want is tax/benefit reform, not universal basic income…

>2/ Regardless of what version of UBI you personally support, it is probably not a good idea to give money to those who don't need it. Wrong. The system doesn't work if you don't give people to money who don't need it: the administrative requirements of assessing who and who doesn't need it, and then policing all this, is just too high. This is the reason UBI was invented in the first place! It's very simple: you giv…

Thank you for proving my point. And now look at the numbers in my diagram, the administrative costs are negligible compared to the cost of giving money to those who don't need it.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#25

Post by JibJabLab »

Shivetya wrote: post #5

Well it will be interesting to see if they do publish any findings. I do agree it would have been beneficial to see what would happen if workers were added to the mix. The question some like myself would like to see is, did any of the initial participants gain employment and leave the program? What did they do differently while provided with UBI they did not do before. I would also like to see if they will be followe…

My issue with it is that we aren't even at a point where UBI is viable. Yes, we have lots of automation but we still have many times more jobs still not automated. The experiment isn't going to show accurate results.

But I agree with you - there will still be work available in an automated society.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#26

Post by dandare »

drdaeman wrote: post #14
dandare wrote: post #7

There are two problems with universal basic income: 1/ Many people think UBI is a great idea but everybody imagines something else. This makes discussing UBI very difficult. 2/ Regardless of what version of UBI you personally support, it is probably not a good idea to give money to those who don't need it. Sooner or later people will realize that what they really want is tax/benefit reform, not universal basic income…

> Everybody thinks UBI is a great idea Irrespective of anyone's personal opinion, I'm absolutely sure it's not everybody. And there are valid reasons for this - but every opponent also imagines something different, just as proponents do.

Fixed.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#27

Post by briandear »

patrickthebold wrote: post #21
dandare wrote: post #7

There are two problems with universal basic income: 1/ Many people think UBI is a great idea but everybody imagines something else. This makes discussing UBI very difficult. 2/ Regardless of what version of UBI you personally support, it is probably not a good idea to give money to those who don't need it. Sooner or later people will realize that what they really want is tax/benefit reform, not universal basic income…

The US gives social security to nearly everyone, including people who "don't need it". This was intentional. The idea being it's harder to take away a benefit that everyone enjoys, and fairly easy to take away benefits solely for "the poor".

The US doesn’t “give” it to nearly everyone — you get a benefit as a proportion of your contribution. If you never contribute to social security, you don’t get the benefit.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#29

Post by pbhjpbhj »

prostoalex wrote: post #18
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #12

These experiments confuse me. Haven't we already seen the result of UBI? Pensions, states that issue money (from state oil income etc), allowances, annuities? The world doesn't come to an end; the people don't all become listless and stop contributing. The currency doesn't inflate uncontrollably; prices don't change at all. The cost of living is unchanged (because economics doesn't work that way). All the FUD produce…

> the people don't all become listless and stop contributing Well, in the US two groups that do get state distributions - residents of Alaska and those on Native American reservations - do have disproportionate rates of substance abuse (mainly alcohol). As far as seniors who get pensions, what is your definition of "contributing"? In many cases they are eligible for those pensions only once they declare themselves re…

Are those groups anomalous though: alcoholism has a generic factor I gather, and colder climates appear to have more substance abuse. With those factors accounted for does providing "pensions" increase substance [ab]use, and is the use problematic.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#30

Post by akvadrako »

dandare wrote: post #19
addicted wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the reasoning behind #2?

Becuase you first have to take the money from those who earned it.

You are missing the whole point of UBI - because it's unconditional it doesn't discourage working.
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