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Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

businessinsider.com

11–20 of 173 posts

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#11
post #4

I understand the argument that, once free from work, a number of people will voluntarily choose to work as physicists or playwrights or mathematicians. What I haven’t understood, though, is why someone would choose to work as a bricklayer or spend their 20s sitting in a fluorescent office designing an industrial process to make ball-bearing lubricant 0.4% more efficient. It’s that sort of menial, unglamorous labor th…

If people didn't have to work, the unappealing work that still needs to be done would probably pay a lot more than it does today.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#12
These experiments confuse me. Haven't we already seen the result of UBI? Pensions, states that issue money (from state oil income etc), allowances, annuities?

The world doesn't come to an end; the people don't all become listless and stop contributing. The currency doesn't inflate uncontrollably; prices don't change at all. The cost of living is unchanged (because economics doesn't work that way).

All the FUD produced over this is astonishing. I admit, I had questions to begin with as well. But it takes only a little reading and thinking to get over it.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#13
post #4

I understand the argument that, once free from work, a number of people will voluntarily choose to work as physicists or playwrights or mathematicians. What I haven’t understood, though, is why someone would choose to work as a bricklayer or spend their 20s sitting in a fluorescent office designing an industrial process to make ball-bearing lubricant 0.4% more efficient. It’s that sort of menial, unglamorous labor th…

> It’s that sort of menial, unglamorous labor that our society and quality of life is built on.

It's also that sort of labor that has been—and will continue to be—replaced by robots.

As for why someone would do that? Well, you still get paid your UBI even if you have a job. So they would do that for the same reason anyone does that—they want the money.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#14
post #7

There are two problems with universal basic income: 1/ Many people think UBI is a great idea but everybody imagines something else. This makes discussing UBI very difficult. 2/ Regardless of what version of UBI you personally support, it is probably not a good idea to give money to those who don't need it. Sooner or later people will realize that what they really want is tax/benefit reform, not universal basic income…

> Everybody thinks UBI is a great idea

Irrespective of anyone's personal opinion, I'm absolutely sure it's not everybody. And there are valid reasons for this - but every opponent also imagines something different, just as proponents do.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#15
post #7

There are two problems with universal basic income: 1/ Many people think UBI is a great idea but everybody imagines something else. This makes discussing UBI very difficult. 2/ Regardless of what version of UBI you personally support, it is probably not a good idea to give money to those who don't need it. Sooner or later people will realize that what they really want is tax/benefit reform, not universal basic income…

Define "give" and "don't need it" :) I think UBI necessarily implies a tax raise. If you give a rich person $1000 in UBI and raise their effective tax bill by $3000, are you actually giving them money?

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#16

These experiments confuse me. Haven't we already seen the result of UBI? Pensions, states that issue money (from state oil income etc), allowances, annuities? The world doesn't come to an end; the people don't all become listless and stop contributing. The currency doesn't inflate uncontrollably; prices don't change at all. The cost of living is unchanged (because economics doesn't work that way). All the FUD produce…

How did you come to those conclusions? I've never seen any such study.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#17
post #7

There are two problems with universal basic income: 1/ Many people think UBI is a great idea but everybody imagines something else. This makes discussing UBI very difficult. 2/ Regardless of what version of UBI you personally support, it is probably not a good idea to give money to those who don't need it. Sooner or later people will realize that what they really want is tax/benefit reform, not universal basic income…

It depends on what the starting point is. In Denmark every single person have tax deduction. For persons over 18 that is currently 46.000 DKK. In addition there is a host of other deductions and benefits for various situations. UBI would replace some/many of those, so it would in essence be a tax reform. It still doesn't capture the majority of economic activity the state is involved in, but it would make a lot of things significantly simpler.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#18

These experiments confuse me. Haven't we already seen the result of UBI? Pensions, states that issue money (from state oil income etc), allowances, annuities? The world doesn't come to an end; the people don't all become listless and stop contributing. The currency doesn't inflate uncontrollably; prices don't change at all. The cost of living is unchanged (because economics doesn't work that way). All the FUD produce…

> the people don't all become listless and stop contributing

Well, in the US two groups that do get state distributions - residents of Alaska and those on Native American reservations - do have disproportionate rates of substance abuse (mainly alcohol).

As far as seniors who get pensions, what is your definition of "contributing"? In many cases they are eligible for those pensions only once they declare themselves retired.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#19
post #9
post #7

There are two problems with universal basic income: 1/ Many people think UBI is a great idea but everybody imagines something else. This makes discussing UBI very difficult. 2/ Regardless of what version of UBI you personally support, it is probably not a good idea to give money to those who don't need it. Sooner or later people will realize that what they really want is tax/benefit reform, not universal basic income…

What’s the reasoning behind #2?

Becuase you first have to take the money from those who earned it.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#20
post #7

There are two problems with universal basic income: 1/ Many people think UBI is a great idea but everybody imagines something else. This makes discussing UBI very difficult. 2/ Regardless of what version of UBI you personally support, it is probably not a good idea to give money to those who don't need it. Sooner or later people will realize that what they really want is tax/benefit reform, not universal basic income…

>2/ Regardless of what version of UBI you personally support, it is probably not a good idea to give money to those who don't need it.

Wrong. The system doesn't work if you don't give people to money who don't need it: the administrative requirements of assessing who and who doesn't need it, and then policing all this, is just too high. This is the reason UBI was invented in the first place!

It's very simple: you give the same money to everyone, even if they're a billionaire. To make up for this, you raise the taxes a commensurate amount on the people who don't need it (and more for the really rich people, because the idea is wealth redistribution). So someone making $100k, for instance, obviously doesn't need a handout, so you raise their taxes that same amount so they're paying back in taxes what they're getting from the UBI, and netting zero. It's much easier to do this than to have thousands of government workers auditing everyone to make sure they aren't "cheating" by receiving money they're not qualified for, which is what we do with current welfare schemes.

>Sooner or later people will realize that what they really want is tax/benefit reform

No, tax reform doesn't do anything to reduce the administrative burden of current welfare systems. UBI does. Less money you pay out for unnecessary government office workers is more money you can end up giving to people in need, and society will be better off with those government workers finding more productive professions which might actually generate more wealth and taxable income, instead of just being a drain on taxpayers.

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