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California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

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Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#211

Post by avs733 »

NickM wrote: post #70
rdiddly wrote: post #18

"...an ideologically motivated attack by an extremist organization working directly with union supporters to create a calculated disinformation campaign against Tesla" vs. "...Tesla failed to report serious injuries on legally mandated reports to make its numbers appear better than they actually were." Now use Occam's Razor.

Occam's Razor doesn't say that the simplest explanation is automatically true; it just says that if we can't know for sure, and we have to choose between two equally valid hypotheses, then we might as well assume the simpler one. This being a real-world situation, it should be possible to figure out what's really going on, which is what California seems to be doing. No reason to make unwarranted assumptions either wa…

I would argue that the more tailored, narrow, and fact referenced one is simpler. The Tesla statement reads as far to hysterical to be taken as simple or serious. It is absolutist where the journalists are not.

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#212

Post by erikpukinskis »

tzakrajs wrote: post #170
briandear wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California law DOES protect whistleblowers. The law is extremely clear. Those laws even provide for damages due to retailiation.

Sure, except they only protect you from retaliation by your current employer. It does nothing to help you retain new employment once your reputation precludes you from opportunities at companies with draconian H.R. policies aimed at mitigating risk. Maybe existing or forthcoming case law can tell us more about how this plays out in reality.

Maybe we need a nonprofit job placement service for whistleblowers.

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#213

Post by erikpukinskis »

kregasaurusrex wrote: post #121
makecheck wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in that situation, if you’re a paycheck-to-paycheck worker, how much boat-rocking can you endure? On some theoretical future date according to the law you can get back at your employer, great: in the meantime, maybe you got fired and now you can’t feed yourself? We’ve seen plenty of companies that shrug off large fines and such. Whatever the rules, it has to reach the point of being seriously unprofitable to dis…

Not to mention the further stigmatization that results from being a whistleblower- having your name in published sources associated with calling out an employer may impact how quickly you can find a new job. Future employers also like seeing $LARGE_CORP experience on a resume, where I've seen colleagues stay at a job they didn't like only for the prestige attached to this line item. For a worker without this safety n…

Not to mention the emotional toll. Having an entire HR department viciously attacking you when you’ve already been wrongned, while backing the party who wronged you, can be extremely scary and depleting.

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#214

Post by danso »

gniv wrote: post #199
danso wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what are your feelings about Theranos, another hugely visionary/envelope-pushing Palo Alto company (valued as high as $9 billion) that was investigated by an East Coast reporter who has no medical, bioengineering, or entrepreneurial experience? https://www.propublica.org/podcast/how-a-reporter-pierced-th...

I thought about this. I don't think the comparison is correct. Theranos was not delivering what was promising product-wise. Tesla is accused of hiding injuries. I don't know the truth here, but I would be surprised if the other car companies are behaving better. That was my point: How do these reporters know that the other factories do not underreport injuries the same way? If they have never done this before, they w…

It was only because of the WSJ reporting that we can say Theranos “was not delivering what it was promising product-wise”. Before the investigation, hundreds of millions of dollars had been invested by ostensibly sane investors, nevermind partnerships with Walgreens and Safeway. Using your standard, no one should have paid the WSJ investigation any attention until the reporter was thoroughly versed in blood tech.

The Reveal reporters are making a claim about Tesla’s worker safety practices, and they have experience covering these issues. Why don’t you think that experience is relevant in the car making domain?

More to the point, Reveal’s story isn’t claiming that Tesla is misreporting injuries more than other car makers. It claims Tesla is misreporting injuries, full stop. It doesn’t require comparison.

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#215

Post by carapace »

jacquesm wrote: post #169
komali2 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am skeptical by default of anything on the internet posted on forums with nothing more than an email requirement. I voice this skepticism because as a hobby I lie on reddit profusely and then track this misinformation, sometimes for years later. I've seen unfactual "memes" spread across reddit like wildfire, such as "eating honey prevents allergies." It's often traceable to a single sub-tree comment in a single pop…

So, let me get this straight: because you are dick and purposefully pollute another forum with lies you think that someone who relates a story about a friend is also automatically a dick and a liar. This comment says a lot more about you than it does about the OP and from now on I will consider everything you write on HN to a lie.

Tut tut, komali2 is performing a valuable service. You're being a boor.

It's foolish to believe anything you read on the internet: it's a tissue of lies and propaganda. Something like 83.2% of everyone you talk to online is actually someone else.

Why, I myself am a marmoset, but would you ever know it if I hadn't told you?

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#216

Post by barsonme »

trimbo wrote: post #204
usaphp wrote: post #62

> It was difficult to find employees to go on the record. Like a lot of tech companies in Silicon Valley, workers signed non-disclosure agreements. NDAs usually are put in place so workers don't share any trade secrets or proprietary technology. So some workers were scared to talk to us because of this NDA they sign for working at Tesla. Damn, so workers were afraid to speak up and spread the injury info because they…

> I think somebody needs to do something about this NDA situation, it’s getting out of control in SV Jimmy John's used to have their sandwich-making employees sign non-competes. They buckled on this since then, but this article details it with some other policy examples: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/15/upshot/when-the-guy-makin...

Honestly, I'm not sure how many rank and file employees signed one. I worked there from 2012-2015 and, as far as I recall, wasn't required to sign an NDA. I do think they required managers (who were sent off to the 1-2 week managerial school in IL) to sign NDAs, though. Also GMs and other salaried positions.

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#217

Post by danso »

gniv wrote: post #197
gniv wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From that thread: > Have you investigated any other auto manufacturer? > (ajpreports) I haven't nor has Will. But maybe that's our next venture! That diminishes their credibility a lot in my mind. This is a type of investigation that should be done by people with experience in the area. Especially on a company that pushes the envelope like Tesla.

Five people downvoted but only one replied. I would appreciate a line explaining, since I didn't think my opinion was so controversial.

I didn’t downvote. But I imagine people disagreed with your unjustified appeal to authority. It pretty much closes off any kind of journalism critical of Tesla.

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#218

Post by freedomfries »

majormajor wrote: post #113
netsec_burn wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we all want Tesla to succeed. It's competition in an industry that needs what Tesla is trying to bring to market. It will also greatly benefit the American economy to be the first to mass produce inexpensive electric cars. So personally, I read comments like yours and wonder who you are and why you feel it is necessary to be critical of that motive.

I want the electric car transition to succeed, but if Tesla's becoming a bad actor in their quest to be the biggest winner, than I don't think that's helpful for the overall effort anymore.

> if Tesla's becoming a bad actor in their quest to be the biggest winner, than I don't think that's helpful

It's still super helpful. We need to advance our tech at all costs. It's the only thing we have on this continent. We've gifted foreign nations with our manufacturing industries and gutted the American middle class, and the entrails have been used to lift 250,000 people a day out of poverty since 1990. This is a serious gift and a serious tragedy at the same time.

Now there is nothing good about herniated disks from 16 hours of holding your arms over your head every day. I am not defending that. But you have to put it in perspective. Things are so damn good all the frigging time in America and Canada, _relatively speaking_, that we look at herniated disks from hard work like it's some great tragedy that should net each suffering worker $400,000 and a couple years off. But if you lived in China you'd be faced with taking zero dollars, or going to prison for complaining, or getting caught in one of the suicide nets on the sides of Foxconn.

So what's it going to be, guy? Are we going to stifle our tech because we aren't willing to break eggs to make an omelette? Or are we going to let go of our hatred for the tall poppy and let him do his job?

Let me finish by saying that Elon Musk inspired me to move to the big city and get a comp sci education 3 years ago, at this point I am now an intermediate-level dev with great prospects and without Elon Musk striking inspiration and courage in my heart I would be much more bitter and resentful and lame than I am now. So I will defend him to the end of the Earth for setting such a shining and glorious example for me to follow.

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#219

Post by andromeduck »

Diederich wrote: post #67
ebikelaw wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alabama produces a million cars a year, in factories that are actually high-tech unlike Tesla’s. You think they are clamoring to bring in an automaker struggling to produce a handful of cars with double the industry injury rate?

> actually high-tech unlike Tesla’s citation needed.

https://youtu.be/HGi-KmYGuZE

CFRP + Aluminum, similar volumes as what Tesla was targeting.

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#220

Post by ranman »

rubicon33 wrote: post #173
ranman wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worked at SpaceX in LA on software. It was generally quite pleasant but you do put in a lot of hours. No one asks you to work overtime or work extra hours - it’s just a fun environment and you like your coworkers so you stay at work longer than you should. Most people who were there longer than I was ended up finding a healthy work / life balance that they could sustain... I don’t think the new folks do this because…

> I left because the space industry moves at quite a slow pace compared to the rest of the software world and I was tired of working on one small piece of software while the world was changing around me... Would love it if you could shed some more light on this point :) Was it that you were using an old programming language or something? It's hard for me to believe that the space industry didn't present some pretty a…

I wasn’t working on any code that was changing rapidly. I was basically making small tweaks to existing projects without the opportunity to refactor. The work being done by the whole company was fascinating... the small part of that I was working on was somewhat mind numbing. I kept doing some one off projects that were fun for a day or two but nothing that took multiple months or people to build and get into production. Nothing that I was personally super proud of. Others were in more substantial projects and probably enjoyed their work more.
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