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The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

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Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is why, as a (global) society, we should spend our resources in making sure the data we have is accurate by funding research and repeated studies, and that data should be open to all to verify and build upon.

I think we're passed the point where studies can be reproduced effectively. I actually think the scientific model is falling apart. We've discovered the easy things, and those studies were easy to reproduce. We built a model of science around the low hanging fruit. How are you going to reproduce a study about a cancer drug? Synthesizing the drug itself is a huge endeavor, never mind finding a group of participants wi…

There's enough resources to conduct multiple wars and bailout the financial industry every 10 years, but not enough resources to educate our fellow citizens and fund research? (with all results open and accessible to all through this fancy thing called the internet)

Our problem isn't lack of resources. There's 7.5 billion people in the world, I can't believe we've ran out of control groups and experiments to do. Maybe it's a little more difficult with medical edge cases, but there's plenty of other things to research. It's just hard to do it politically, especially with people that are "anti-science", meaning against funding research that might show outcomes that aren't good for them economically, or against their religion.

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#62
In response to several threads here: it is important to distinguish when scientists are self critical vs. when non-scientists are critical of the scientific method. For instance, there is a long history of scientists criticizing how the scientific process is currently conducted for the purposes of improving the scientific endeavor. That work is sometimes used by non-scientists who question the overall scientific method. However, such use is invalid as the scientific self-criticism

1. assumes the validity of the scientific method

2. relies on the scientific method as its critical lens

Whereas those who critique science as a whole:

1. assume that the scientific method does not work and does not arrive at "truth"

2. then use scientists being self critical to prove #1.

Such a "proof" does not work as there is its uses the assumption "the scientific method arrives at truth" to derive the contradiction "the scientific method does not arrive at truth". See for instance comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16859200

In reality, work on reproducibility is about improving the practice of science overall. It does not in itself show that science is inherently untrustworthy. What it does show is that scientific discovery is difficult and it takes a lot of effort and new findings should be treated critically. What does critically mean in this context? It means with in the boundaries of science analyzing the theoretical basis, hypothesis, method, and experimental results for potential flaws. It does not mean to be skeptical as a default because science "doesn't work."

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#63
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we don't use science to make decisions, what are we supposed to use? Gut instinct? Of course science is imperfect, but it tends towards truth over time, whereas dogma and populism have no way of correcting mistakes that isn't just as likely to introduce new ones.

If a decision has to be made then science as a guide may be the best option but much of the time it would be better for government not to try and make policy at all in complex areas. Using "healthy eating" as an example, governments might try to influence what people eat by taxing or even outlawing "unhealthy" foods or subsidizing "healthy" foods. Instead of arguing over whether and how much the government should be…

> Instead of arguing over whether and how much the government should be imposing sin taxes on fats (and what kind of fats?) or sugars (and what kind of sugars), the better approach would be to do nothing and let people make their own choices based on the best information available to them at the time.

Why? Do we believe that individuals are likely to be better informed than governments? (why?)

Uncertainty is a fact of life. Any decision-making process will lead to some mistakes. That's not a reason to give up on trying to make things better. If the government believes, based on the best evidence available at the time, that a particular fat tax policy (say) will, overall, be good for society, surely it's better to implement that policy than not.

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#64

Recently I have been beginning to question university education. It seems that today's education system has mismatched priorities which may have an impact on the reproducibility crisis. You see, to come up with a fantastic new alloy, you don't have to be a genius. Or even very good. You have to be persistent, and clever enough to realize when you've found something interesting. You will need to understand your field…

To the downvoters: please explain your reasoning. I think I raised some good points here.

Haven't downvoted, but I'd guess it probably starts with "Why are we bothering to educate anyone except the very, very best students in physics, maths and engineering?"

Sure, we will undoubtedly get better society-wide results if we identify a subset of elite students (notably defined primarily in terms of STEM fields) and only "bother" educating them, leaving everyone else to Just Trust Them™ and underutilizing the long tail of talent.

And then there's the premise that society somehow isn't looking to utilize the existing population of elite students, which of course it is, no shortage of organizations looking for outliers.

About the only good point there is that our system for allocating the best/brightest to certain problems could use improvement.

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#65

We know that weak classifiers can be bagged to produce a strong classifier al la Adaboost. Each study is a weak classifier and would have a 'reproducibility crisis' if retested on new data. However after lots of studies of similar phenomena, a strong classifier emerges. In the field, we call this converging lines of evidence.

I'm not sure I really agree with this, because in science studies are biased towards aligning with the results of previous studies. This can be due to many factors: authors' expectations, journals like to publish positive over negative results, peer reviewers will look more critically (in an analytical sense) at work that disagrees with accepted research, etc....

It can be very hard for many reasons to stand up and say "this prior work is wrong".

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the downvoters: please explain your reasoning. I think I raised some good points here.

Haven't downvoted, but I'd guess it probably starts with "Why are we bothering to educate anyone except the very, very best students in physics, maths and engineering?" Sure, we will undoubtedly get better society-wide results if we identify a subset of elite students (notably defined primarily in terms of STEM fields) and only "bother" educating them, leaving everyone else to Just Trust Them™ and underutilizing the…

The rest of the comment explicitly disagrees with that thought. I have edited it to make it clearer.

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#67
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, 'science' not science? Got it. That was a pretty quick Godwining, by the way.

So you'd ignore one of the most horrific and important examples of widely accepted science going wrong because of an internet meme?

Science didn't go wrong. The data was bad, the processes were bad, there was no replication. How was that science?

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#68
The site is down so I can't read the original report, but I've read reports on this topic in the past so I'm going to chime in with some "usual suspects" caveats:

1. No result is 100% reproducible because you can never completely reproduce the conditions of any experiment. The best you can hope to do is to reproduce the conditions that matter, but enumerating those has to be part of the theory you are testing, and so you can never be 100% sure that you have a complete list.

2. Even a completely non-reproducible result can be scientifically significant. For example, celestial events are almost never reproducible. Our understanding of celestial mechanics nonetheless rests on solid science.

3. The end-product of science is not truth, it is explanations of observations. Those observations can (indeed must) include non-reproducible ones. Sometimes the explanation of non-reproducible results is "experimental error" or "delusion" or "we just don't know." But non-reproducible events are nonetheless within the purview of science.

On the other hand...

4. The statistical tests currently in widespread use as a criterion for publication in peer-reviewed journals guarantee that at least one result in 20 will be due to chance and not because the hypothesis being tested is actually true. That, combined with the suppression of negative results, guarantees that the results published in scientific journals that adhere to those standards will be unreliable. But that doesn't really have anything to do with reproducibility per se, it has to do with the fact that the journals use a weak criterion for defining positive results. That, combined with our human predilection to value positive results over negative ones and the understandable desire of scientists to advance their careers, all but guarantees that journals will contain many defensible but false results. But this is not because of a lack of reproducibility per se, it's because of poor policy choices.

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#70

Recently I have been beginning to question university education. It seems that today's education system has mismatched priorities which may have an impact on the reproducibility crisis. You see, to come up with a fantastic new alloy, you don't have to be a genius. Or even very good. You have to be persistent, and clever enough to realize when you've found something interesting. You will need to understand your field…

That would never work. We have no accurate way to identify the "best" students so early in the educational pipeline. High school grades and standardized test scores are poor predictors of who will make major contributions to science.

More public funding for basic research (including reproduction studies) would probably deliver major long term benefits.

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