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Time to rebuild the web?

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Re: Time to rebuild the web?

#361

Post by jonathanlloyd »

Whilst I take the point that the web has become too centralized (and that the path away from this is in part a UX problem) this piece ignores the fact that having a service provider manage your software/infrastructure is always going to have more leverage to provide a better user experience.

This is what makes the focus on P2P technologies so disappointing. You lose the leverage of the service provider along with the well understood financial incentives for providing a good service.

This is why I am much more excited about federated technologies rather than P2P - the problem isn't that I need a provider to help me share my content, the problem is that if I want to publish content as a social media user that Facebook is the only game in town!

Re: Time to rebuild the web?

#362

Post by TremendousJudge »

Just_Smith wrote: post #326
SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a paying customer, I'm genuinely surprised that adblocking is possible with Spotify considering they control both the servers and the client. That said, I started on the free plan and have friends who still use it and the ads really aren't intrustive at all - it hardly seems like it would be worth the effort?

I haven't used an ad blockers for Spotify in a long time (because I'm a premium user when I can afford it), but when I was using one, all it did was mute the ads when they came on. Not perfect, but it certainly didn't break the mood as much as a randomly placed ad.

I use Spotify web with uBlock. It doesn't mute audio ads, they just aren't there. Not sure how it works.

As a side note, the web app is hidden -- they want you to download the desktop app, from which you can't block ads. The thing is, the desktop app performs even worse than the web app

Re: Time to rebuild the web?

#363

Post by KajMagnus »

CM30 wrote: post #330
icc97 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually that makes a lot of sense, it's not that we need to have RSS replace Facebook, we need a resurgance of forums to take back from Facebook. Perhaps if forums could talk to each other you'd have an experience more like mastodon, but in concepts that more people understand. Something like an open source Stack Exchange network. So you can log-in to one of them but then easily create an account using the credentia…

This is basically the setup I've been discussing in my articles about a decentralised Reddit alternative. A system where forums are all hosted independently, but can share login data, reputation data, post history, etc. https://artplusmarketing.com/discussing-a-decentralised-redd... It would hopefully avert the issue Reddit like sites have where different groups want to control what others can say on the platform, by…

I actually mostly appreciate the moderation/censorship Reddit does nowadays. E.g. banning subreddits like "beating cr-ppl-s" and "r-p-ng w-men". Isn't the world better of, when it's harder for people to give advice about, and encourage, those things?

Anyway, you wrote (in the blog): "independently hosted forums" — I like that, for various reasons.

Actually, I might slightly have built a Reddit alternative minus single-sign-on. Here's an a bit Reddit like discussion:

https://www.talkyard.io/forum/-61859/forum-software-for-the-...

And one can create per site sub communities, a bit like subreddits. Actually, there are improvements over Reddit: https://www.talkyard.io/-32/how-hacker-news-can-be-improved-... . Someone is actually emailing with me about migrating their subreddits from Reddit to a Talkyard community at their own domain.

You wrote: "It would be a very complicated forum aggregator with a ton of features necessary to create the combined community side like on Reddit or its alternatives." — I agree. And it'd also be lovely with a mobile phone app, that could connect to all these disparate communities. So one didn't need to type the address in the mobile phone browser. Instead one just clicked in a list of recently visited communities. And it showed notifications too. ... A bit like mobile Facebook and Reddit, but connected to 999 decentralized communities.

I've been thinking a bit about building this mobile app, and forum aggregator / search engine. And initially make it work with Discourse (https://www.discourse.org), Flarum (http://flarum.org) and Talkyard (https://www.talkyard.io).

Re: Time to rebuild the web?

#364

Post by amasad »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #249
randomsearch wrote: post #105

I don't believe the problem lies in any technology. We don't need blockchain, it's not JavaScript minification, it isn't the centralisation of services that are the problem. It's the business model. No amount of tech is going to change that. If you want to change the situation, start social media businesses with a different business model.

It's not just social media, and it's not just ads, about which other people responded to you. The root of the problem - or at least the trunk very close to the root - is Software as a Service. It's the trend of turning software into services. Sure, it's nice for the vendors, and it's nice for corporate clients who can write off responsibility to a third party. But it also makes you no longer in control of your data,…

> It's what leads to proliferation of ads, surveillance and growth strategies like dumbing down software to the point of almost complete uselessness

How did SaaS lead to all these things? Unless you're broadning the definition of SaaS from a revenue model and software deployment strategy to somethibg like "any software that you use that runs on remote servers". But that's the whole point of connecting computers together in a network!

Re: Time to rebuild the web?

#365

Post by notriddle »

mojomark wrote: post #311
SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a paying customer, I'm genuinely surprised that adblocking is possible with Spotify considering they control both the servers and the client. That said, I started on the free plan and have friends who still use it and the ads really aren't intrustive at all - it hardly seems like it would be worth the effort?

Also as a paying premium spotify customer, I can say they still serve up ads, they're just incognito... 1.) I recently had a splash screen for a Hulu partner "free trial" membership. Turns out it's actually a bundle, but I don't want to pay more for Hulu so keep your "ads" out of my premium feed Spotify. Put it in a special offers section where I can peruse at my liesure. https://support.spotify.com/us/account_paymen…

> My email is constantly bombarded with ads like "[pick a artist] wants to say 'thanks' with presale tickets". I already get presale with Amex. Again, these ads can be placed in a 'shows near you' section vice shoved in my email face.

Doesn't CAN-SPAM legally require them to have an unsubscribe button on anything like that?

Re: Time to rebuild the web?

#366

Post by KajMagnus »

freehunter wrote: post #355
always_good wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, without bumping threads on new posts, there's almost no reason to even comment on older topics on HN/Reddit. If it's not on the first two pages, nobody is going to see it. Even worse, the only person who might see it is the one person you responded to since it's in the profile comment feed, and a back-and-forth isn't very interesting. This makes forums much different where each new reply bumps the topic into th…

Yeah for sure, and even here on HN. I don't reply to comments older than a few days because the only one who will see them is the person I'm replying to. And if my comment is a correction or a clarification, the person I'm responding to may not take it well, so my comment hits 0 or even negative numbers, without the possibility of the general population correcting that (then again, without the risk of them further co…

Here's a Reddit & HN like discussion system (I'm developing it) that mitigates? (solves?) the problem with Reddit & HN that [only the one you reply to see your comment]:

https://www.talkyard.io/-32/how-hacker-news-can-be-improved-...

Because: 1) when you post a comment, the topic bumps to the top of the topic list. Like a normal forum. 2) inside the topic, people quickly find the recent comments, via the sidebar (as shown in the video "Finding new comments").

(B.t.w. agree that Reddit & HN feel ephemeral. I remember maybe 2 usernames here at HN, and 2 at Reddit, although having spent a lot more time here, than what I've done at Discoure's forum — nevertheless I remember many more people over at Discourse.)

Re: Time to rebuild the web?

#367

Post by tbv »

8bitsrule wrote: post #354
Hedja wrote: post #23

It feels like this is already a work in progress using Beaker Browser and Dat. - Beaker lets you browse entire websites (dat archives) and fork them. - It lets you create and serve your own sites directly from the browser and seed it from a server (like a torrent). - It lets other sites create templated sites under your name for user generated content. - Visitors by default temporarily seed your website which may red…

Short Beaker browser review: Interesting idea and project. The browser's UI is very different... and lacks some (most) customization options... I spent a long time looking for a way to increase the font-size, for example. (Not all of us are accustomed to squinting at phones.) Preferences to set: I thought that was hiding, but it seems to be missing. Say what? After an hour toying with the interface: technically it lo…

Beaker dev here, quick question: did you try our beta release? We've done a ton of work in the past few months to make it less opaque and to freshen up our UIs. Would love to hear your thoughts on the beta if you have the time!

https://github.com/beakerbrowser/beaker/releases

Re: Time to rebuild the web?

#368

Post by notriddle »

philangist wrote: post #303
johnfactorial wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... and Wikipedia and NPR are excellent if imperfect versions of that model.

Both of which are constantly asking for donations

In case you were curious, the Wikimedia Foundation has plenty of money to keep their sites running. Most of their funds are going to other projects, like conferences and "Wikipedia-in-a-box" type stuff. [1] [2]

[1]: http://mywikibiz.com/Top_10_Reasons_Not_to_Donate_to_Wikiped...

[2]: Despite linking to "reasons not to donate to Wikipedia," I'd still prefer more sites run like Wikipedia and less sites run like YouTube, and I think you should donate to the Wikimedia Foundation if you're a power user. Do not donate to the Wikimedia Foundation unless you're heavily involved in their wikis, but if you are heavily involved and have the money, you should. Their donors need to hold them accountable, and that's not possible if they're getting tons of money from people who have no idea what's going on behind the scenes.

Re: Time to rebuild the web?

#369

Post by tbv »

erikb wrote: post #231
Hedja wrote: post #23

It feels like this is already a work in progress using Beaker Browser and Dat. - Beaker lets you browse entire websites (dat archives) and fork them. - It lets you create and serve your own sites directly from the browser and seed it from a server (like a torrent). - It lets other sites create templated sites under your name for user generated content. - Visitors by default temporarily seed your website which may red…

I like it. It's not clear to me though from skimming over the sites, whether beaker and dat are standards or pure tools. If they are standards and therefore people are able to do their own implementation, I believe it can be successful. However if it's just a tool without standardization efforts behind it, then it's still a centralized system.

Beaker dev here. Dat is a protocol that can anyone can implement, and Beaker is a tool that implements Dat in the browser. We built Beaker as a demonstration of what becomes possible when you put a peer-to-peer protocol in the browser, with the hope that other browsers will someday follow along in our footsteps.

Re: Time to rebuild the web?

#370

Post by rushsteve1 »

notriddle wrote: post #365
mojomark wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also as a paying premium spotify customer, I can say they still serve up ads, they're just incognito... 1.) I recently had a splash screen for a Hulu partner "free trial" membership. Turns out it's actually a bundle, but I don't want to pay more for Hulu so keep your "ads" out of my premium feed Spotify. Put it in a special offers section where I can peruse at my liesure. https://support.spotify.com/us/account_paymen…

> My email is constantly bombarded with ads like "[pick a artist] wants to say 'thanks' with presale tickets". I already get presale with Amex. Again, these ads can be placed in a 'shows near you' section vice shoved in my email face. Doesn't CAN-SPAM legally require them to have an unsubscribe button on anything like that?

IIRC they do have an unsubscribe button, or some other opt-out method, because I know I clicked it, and I don't receive any of the aforementioned ad emails.
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