In a Leaked Memo, Apple Warns Employees to Stop Leaking Information • Hacker News Board

Re: In a Leaked Memo, Apple Warns Employees to Stop Leaking Information

#201

Post by jlgaddis » Sat, Apr 14, 2018, 4:46 AM UTC

greedo wrote: post #34

calvinbhai wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy way to narrow down who is leaking eh? Always thought that’s the best way to narrow down the leaks. Give variations of info to subgroups, and target the group based on which variant was leaked.

Tom Clancy called it the Canary Trap. Each document had very slight differences, and were tracked to each recipient so leaks could be found.

Thanks, that's the first time I've heard the term.

Apparently Elon Musk tried this same technique at Tesla but "it backfired hilariously on the brilliant entrepreneur" [0,1]. According to Wikipedia [0]:

> After a series of leaks at Tesla Motors in 2008, CEO Elon Musk reportedly sent slightly different versions of an e-mail to each employee in an attempt to reveal potential leakers. The e-mail was disguised as a request to employees to sign a new non-disclosure agreement.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_trap#Known_canary_trap_...

[1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20131020092330/http://gawker.com...

Re: In a Leaked Memo, Apple Warns Employees to Stop Leaking Information

#202

Post by jlgaddis » Sat, Apr 14, 2018, 5:01 AM UTC

paxys wrote: post #190

jlgaddis wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll repost a comment I made a few moments ago [0] again here: > Are media organizations like 9to5mac (mentioned in Apple's memo) paying Apple insiders for the information they provide? > Personally, I wouldn't think that the leakers were getting paid. Even if they were, I imagine the amount that these particular online web sites are able to pay is very much -- especially when compared to the average Apple employee's…

You're only talking about one specific kind of leak. How much would a hardware manufacturer be willing to pay to get specs of the latest iPhone in advance so their accessories can be out in the market before anyone else? What about a competitor who wants to know more about the company's future releases. All of this happens, and companies have to work to prevent it.

> You're only talking about one specific kind of leak.

Yeah, you're right.

I was focusing on leaks to media/news sites but that's because the Apple memo seemed to focus on that as well (e.g., "The employee who leaked the meeting to a reporter ...", "Instead, people who work for Apple are often targeted by press, analysts and bloggers ...", and so on), although they did specifically mention leaks "in the supply chain" too.

Leaking/selling company information to a competitor or rival is obviously a concern as well but I think this memo is pretty clearly aimed at those who might consider leaking to the press.

Re: In a Leaked Memo, Apple Warns Employees to Stop Leaking Information

#203

Post by jlgaddis » Sat, Apr 14, 2018, 5:02 AM UTC

jlgaddis wrote: post #186

ghaff wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Just how much can we expect Bloomberg might pay for a copy of this memo? I'm guessing that it's very much against Bloomberg's ethics policies to pay anything at all.

I thought about that as all. In addition, paying sources for information could lead to "fake" or incorrect information being provided to the media by "leakers" who are simply in need of money.

It's now too late to edit my comment (above) but

  s/all/well/

is what I intended to write.

Re: In a Leaked Memo, Apple Warns Employees to Stop Leaking Information

#204

Post by ebullientocelot » Sat, Apr 14, 2018, 5:02 AM UTC

wmgries wrote: post #150

jadedhacker wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Post is a movie about the Washington Post, which has a large undisclosed financial conflict of interest with the CIA. Jeff Bezos's AWS has a large CIA contract, and Bezos owns the Post. Getting a take about leakers in such a movie is not the best way to acquire a real picture of the world. The CIA only locks up brown people and tortures them in Thailand (star). It refers US leakers to the FBI which throws them in…

You understand that The Post is about the Pentagon Papers, and takes place in the 1970s, when Jeff Bezos was like 10 right?

I was curious so I looked it up, Wikipedia has Jeff Bezos born in 1964, and the Pentagon Papers leak in 1971. I'm too tired to bother with months, so for the sake of convenience we'll go with Jeff was 7 when this happened. In response to the parent post here-- I know Jeff is an impressive guy, but using technology that wouldn't appear for half a century or so to create a conflict of interest with the CIA at 7? Holy shit! If I were 1/100,000th that awesome I'd have a Turing Prize to go with my Fields Medal :P

Re: In a Leaked Memo, Apple Warns Employees to Stop Leaking Information

#205

Post by ebullientocelot » Sat, Apr 14, 2018, 5:04 AM UTC

nosequel wrote: post #137

rdlecler1 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d put Snowden in a different camp because he fell on the sword. Would Manning have leave if she thought she would be caught?

Wait what? Snowden never turned himself in. Snowden ran for the hills right into the arms of rival intelligence. Please don't confusing cowardly running with the act of committing suicide by sword to the stomach. Whether you agree with Snowden or not, he still committed a crime and broke a contract he signed and swore to. Manning at least spent her day in court. Yeah they are different, Snowden was a coward. If he tr…

I don't think that's fair to Snowden. Doing something altruistically does NOT preclude skipping the step where you throw yourself into the belly of the most powerful beast in the world, which also happens to be incredibly pissed off at you.

Re: In a Leaked Memo, Apple Warns Employees to Stop Leaking Information

#206

Post by ebullientocelot » Sat, Apr 14, 2018, 5:07 AM UTC

jlgaddis wrote: post #146

walshemj wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its Money one of the classic reasons to leak

Are media organizations like 9to5mac (mentioned in Apple's memo) paying Apple insiders for the information they provide? Personally, I wouldn't think that the leakers were getting paid. Even if they were, I imagine the amount that these particular online web sites are able to pay is very much -- especially when compared to the average Apple employee's salary. This makes me think that money isn't the primary motivatin…

I agree that money probably isn't the thing. I would imagine the average Apple engineer would realize that the payment for leaking would have to be massive to offset the damage to career / loss of earnings from the damned good job they already have. Maybe it's the sense of getting away with something? Like a super lame, mundane version of Thomas Crown--life is going well in pretty much every category so raise a little hell just to see if you can?

Re: In a Leaked Memo, Apple Warns Employees to Stop Leaking Information

#207

Post by ebullientocelot » Sat, Apr 14, 2018, 5:18 AM UTC

Cyph0n wrote: post #64

jadedhacker wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a little skeptical. The intelligence services would say something that would make you skeptical of the motivations of leakers. If they're selfishly motivated the public doesn't mind them being locked up and put into isolation and tortured in ways that don't leave a mark. The leakers that come to mind immediately are Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning whom both suffered greatly for their leaks (Snowden had to leav…

Didn't Manning leak classified information that threatened the lives of foreign operatives? I never understood why Snowden and Manning are put on equal footing in that regard.

I don't know, but I can speak from experience as a former enlisted soldier in a deployed military intelligence section of the US Army: 95%+ of the "secret" stuff I had access to wouldn't even have been of great interest to the local insurgents, to be honest. The line soldiers going out on mission everyday openly talked in chow halls about their mission schedules and things that would have been far more interesting to the insurgents than what I had on my computer.

Now granted, the mission plans would have been pretty interesting to the other team (I almost wrote the word enemy, but I don't believe that to be accurate, but that's irrelevant to this post), but those were printed out and ended up laying around on desks, all the platoon leaders / platoon sergeants had them, and despite best efforts to keep track of that stuff it is never 100%.

Granted, Chelsea may have had WAY more access than I did, I'm not trying to speak about things I have no facts regarding. I am trying to say that I find it VERY hard to believe that an E-4 intel soldier (or even most O-6's, to be honest) would have access to anything that could compromise field intelligence activities or actionable information about the goings on with special forces teams. The overwhelming majority of the information we had on SIPR (basically the 'secret' internet for USG, the computers with red cables coming out of them) relevant to the local theater of operations was an insanely disorganized mess of reports following missions, almost none of which had anything juicy in them.

Having become a software engineer and math guy after getting out of the service, looking back on the "information" available to US and allied commanders in Afghanistan I'm 100% certain that my current boss would fire me for delivering such a mess.

EDIT Looked up Manning's unit level: Full Disclosure: Chelsea Manning worked in a Brigade level S-2 (intel section), and I was only at Battalion, so she definitely had better systems / access than I did. I still doubt she could find out what Jason Bourne was up to.

Re: In a Leaked Memo, Apple Warns Employees to Stop Leaking Information

#208

Post by eltoozero » Sat, Apr 14, 2018, 5:19 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #147

wonton2 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point, I think, was that CIA is biased, not that they came to these results. You cannot really trust their research, since they analyze their «enemies». It is like when a skin care company cites that «9 out of 10 said this is the best skin cream (in a survey of 30 people)»

> It is like when a skin care company cites that «9 out of 10 said this is the best skin cream (in a survey of 30 people) After throwing out the all but three of the original 100 people saying one of the other 9 were the best skin cream.

Statistics are like bikinis: it’s not what they reveal, it’s what they conceal.

Re: In a Leaked Memo, Apple Warns Employees to Stop Leaking Information

#209

Post by remir » Sat, Apr 14, 2018, 5:46 AM UTC

cromwellian wrote: post #88

I think Apple obsesses too much about secrecy and attributes too much of it to its success. Except for the iPhone launch, almost nothing they've launched hasn't been leaked ahead of time, and yet, it is still the most valuable company in the world and their sales are through the roof. It seems they are still pining for that "shock-and-awe" of Steve Jobs original 2007 iPhone introduction, but don't realize that's no w…

To be fair, Google and Microsoft are also quite secretive about their products.

Re: In a Leaked Memo, Apple Warns Employees to Stop Leaking Information

#210

Post by pcwalton » Sat, Apr 14, 2018, 6:06 AM UTC

brianpan wrote: post #197

bhuga wrote: post #108

> Leakers do not simply lose their jobs at Apple. In some cases, they face jail time and massive fines for network intrusion and theft of trade secrets both classified as federal crimes. In 2017, Apple caught 29 leakers. 12 of those were arrested. This is an email they sent to employees? It sure doesn't sound fun to work there.

You can also go to prison for insider trading. Is this also too onerous for you? What reason is there for leaking information about the company you are currently working for?

I think the tone is heavy-handed. Leaking can happen accidentally--for example, by leaving an iPhone in a bar--and sending the message that this could result in criminal prosecution doesn't seem good for morale.

Of course, every employee at Apple knows the culture of the company, so it's not like it should be any surprise.