Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#131

Post by netsharc » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 8:35 PM UTC

etjossem wrote: post #112

Analemma_ wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This fails the Reasonable Person test. Most people on the street are not aviators, and their assumption is that "autopilot = full autonomy", which is entirely understandable.

"Tesla is extremely clear that Autopilot requires the driver to be alert and have hands on the wheel. This reminder is made every single time Autopilot is engaged." A reasonable person would not take this to mean that the car is driverless.

1. Tesla says it requires hands on wheel. 2. It has sensors to confirm this. 3. The sensors allow you a few seconds (a lot of seconds? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfvkw1TIiM4) with hands off wheels before warning you.

So, which is it, Tesla? Is hands off wheel allowed, or not allowed? If it's not allowed, why do you program your sensors to tolerate the situation?

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#132

Post by slg » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 8:37 PM UTC

txcwpalpha wrote: post #59

I used to be in awe of Teslas and I have always been a big fan of Musk, and even after the crash I still imagined myself one day buying a Tesla. But after this response, I've completely lost respect for the company, for Musk, and I don't think I'll ever buy one or advocate for someone buying one. The driver had previously reported to Tesla 7 to 10 times that there was an issue with autopilot, but Tesla told him "no t…

At the heart of this issue is the fact Teslas are the first car that can have its functionality changed drastically from day to day (this "drive into a median" bug is believed to be a recent issue introduced within the last few months of autopilot updates).

I think that ability to update is one of the most exciting things about Teslas compared to other cars, but it presents a huge organizational problem. How does Tesla communicate out those changes to their customers, mechanics, sales staff, and customer service people? I think the reporting of this specific issue and the original "there is no issue" response is simply from a company failing to communicate in multiple directions rather than any type of sinister motive that some people seem to be implying (Hanlon's razor and all).

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#133

Post by Fricken » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 8:37 PM UTC

Robotbeat wrote: post #40

watwut wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How they call the system drives user expectations and trust. They call it autopilot so that people buy it due to having these expectations. It is consequential and thus legitimate subject to critique.

Calling it autopilot implies you have to pay attention. It implies it's NOT self-driving or autonomous any more than airplanes (which virtually all have some sort of autopilot) are.

The name is irrelevant. What's relevant is that 56% of commercial pilots have admitted to falling asleep while flying[1].

People suck at remaining alert and attentive when doing boring shit. So when autopilot was all over the road and screwing up every 30 seconds, it wasn't much of a problem. Now that it can navigate highways for an hour or more without needing a safety critical intervention, we have a problem.

[1]http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-24296544

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#134

Post by SilasX » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 8:37 PM UTC

tc wrote: post #18

Tesla probably shouldn't be saying anything about this at all, even just to avoid giving it more news cycles. But if they were going to say something, here's what they should have said the first time. ---- We take great care in building our cars to save lives. Forty thousands Americans die on the roads each year. That's a statistic. But even a single death of a Tesla driver or passenger is a tragedy. This has affecte…

"And furthermore, here is why we don't see fit to stop using the name Autopilot, even as we recognize that false sense of security it implies to the average person: ..."

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#135

Post by mrb » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 8:38 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #123

eridius wrote: post #8

I have to wonder why Tesla keeps doubling down on victim-blaming. Is this a case of Elon Musk being insecure about criticism (since he's demonstrated a tendency in the past to react poorly to it)? Or is Tesla trying to actually lower their legal liability? Edit: To clarify, in most of these crashes, it's usually a combination of Tesla's fault and the driver's fault. Which is to say, the driver could have avoided the…

They double down on it because they are shipping a system that is unsafe by design. Their engineers know it, their lawyers know it, and Elon Musk knows it. Blaming the user and pointing to the ToS is their fig leaf against liability. When autopilot is used as required by their ToS, it is useless. When it is used as advertised, it is dangerous. They know better, and they don't give a damn. First to market, and all tha…

«When autopilot is used as required by their ToS, it is useless»

Really? Having an autopilot system with an incredibly fast reaction time able brake/swerve/avoid accidents faster than humans is "useless"?

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#136

Post by maxerickson » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 8:39 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #102

maxerickson wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The requirement that the driver stay attentive does not excuse any and all potential faults with the system.

All safety systems have faults. That’s why the human is ultimately responsible. If you don’t agree, do not engage the safety system. As the operator, you have final authority.

Actually, if the fault isn't reasonable the manufacturer is usually held responsible.

A recent example is the ignition switch recall that old GM had. It took operator action to trigger the fault, but GM still repaired the faulty cars and paid liability claims.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#137

Post by emiliobumachar » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 8:40 PM UTC

John_KZ wrote: post #89

otoburb wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> If the system detects that hands are not on, it provides visual and auditory alerts. This happened several times on Mr. Huang's drive that day. If the system detects that hands are not on the wheel, perhaps something else should be done that will incentivize the driver to disengage Autopilot. Perhaps, send warnings alerts to law enforcement, insurance companies, or emergency contacts? Not sure what the fallback pr…

>perhaps something else should be done that will incentivize the driver to disengage Autopilot. There's a very simple solution: Don't fucking include it in the car. Require the users to show up at the car dealership and sign a legal waiver to allow the activation of the new, insecure, and dangerous feature. There are no cars on the road with airbags that sometimes work and sometimes cause 3rd degree burns. There are…

Airbags have killed, you know...

And I actually know a guy who slept on the wheel, feel sideways into the passenger's seat, then crashed into a tree. The steering wheel crushed the driver's seat where his chest had been. He would presumably die if he wore the seatbelt.

Of course, both seatbelts and airbags save many more lives than they take.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#138

Post by ceejayoz » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 8:41 PM UTC

lucio wrote: post #48

tc wrote: post #18

Tesla probably shouldn't be saying anything about this at all, even just to avoid giving it more news cycles. But if they were going to say something, here's what they should have said the first time. ---- We take great care in building our cars to save lives. Forty thousands Americans die on the roads each year. That's a statistic. But even a single death of a Tesla driver or passenger is a tragedy. This has affecte…

So you would start by quoting Stalin...

It's not like Stalin never had anything fair/correct/smart to say. Guy had some great quotes.

"A sincere diplomat is like dry water or wooden iron."

"We think that a powerful and vigorous movement is impossible without differences - 'true conformity' is possible only in the cemetery."

"Education is a weapon whose effects depend on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed."

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#139

Post by netc » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 8:41 PM UTC

mrguyorama wrote: post #120

Gerardo1 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This same thing can be said of auto-pilot in planes. Not saying it invalidates your argument, just that there are pretty wide-reaching consequences to that idea.

Which is why pilots are still in control of the plane while autopilot is active. Even while active, there is still a "pilot flying" and pilots are still responsible for scanning gauges and readouts and verifying the autopilot is doing what they expect. They do not just turn on autopilot and goof off

they are expected to remain in control of the plane, not necessarily they do: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Pilots-sleep-as-fl...

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#140

Post by blackrock » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 8:43 PM UTC

It sounds like you need life insurance, as we enter into the age of alpha-tested autonomous cars.

You need it to be a driver or passenger when inside a robotic car.

And you also need it when you are just a pedestrian, while walking your bike on the road. Because you never know when a robotic car is going to run you over.