The Programming Talent Myth (2015) • Hacker News Board

Re: The Programming Talent Myth (2015)

#21

Post by toasterlovin » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 4:23 PM UTC

BurritoAlPastor wrote: post #17

EpicEng wrote: post #11

> > The truth is that programming isn't a passion or a talent, it is just a bunch of skills that can be learned. This may be true if your definition of programming is the literal act of writing code / recalling syntax, and learning new tools. Of course, that's not really what programming is. That's the easy part. Programming is about problem solving, code is simply the tool. Critical thinking/problem solving ability,…

Do you mean to say that being able to think in abstractions or keep a lot of state knowledge in short-term memory are skills that cannot be learned? So where did we acquire these skills, if not by learning?

They're built in, like most cognitive abilities. After all, you never learn how to take a 2 dimensional pattern of light hitting your retina and turn it into a 3 dimensional model of your environment. Ditto for locating the source of sounds. And, while you learn a specific language, none of us have to develop the general skill of learning a language from scratch as toddlers.

Re: The Programming Talent Myth (2015)

#22

Post by vinceguidry » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 4:24 PM UTC

sidlls wrote: post #12

vinceguidry wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not an investment, that's giving your money away. Would you spend $X0,000 on something that can walk out the door at any moment?

Did you ever consider that the employee might be a smidge less likely to walk out the door if the employer invested in him or her, recognized his or her achievements in a timely manner with responsibility and authority (promotion) and compensated him or her fairly? Seems to me employees "are likely to walk out the door" mainly because employers view them as expendible expenses and not humans trading labor for somethi…

Sure, but that still doesn't make it an investment, it just makes it a less risky bet. And betting on people being high-minded over being selfish has always been a bad one.

Re: The Programming Talent Myth (2015)

#23

Post by anarchimedes » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 4:25 PM UTC

BurritoAlPastor wrote: post #17

EpicEng wrote: post #11

> > The truth is that programming isn't a passion or a talent, it is just a bunch of skills that can be learned. This may be true if your definition of programming is the literal act of writing code / recalling syntax, and learning new tools. Of course, that's not really what programming is. That's the easy part. Programming is about problem solving, code is simply the tool. Critical thinking/problem solving ability,…

Do you mean to say that being able to think in abstractions or keep a lot of state knowledge in short-term memory are skills that cannot be learned? So where did we acquire these skills, if not by learning?

Paging Gwern? [1] [1] http://www.gwern.net/DNB-FAQ

Re: The Programming Talent Myth (2015)

#24

Post by Pigo » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 4:26 PM UTC

EpicEng wrote: post #11

> > The truth is that programming isn't a passion or a talent, it is just a bunch of skills that can be learned. This may be true if your definition of programming is the literal act of writing code / recalling syntax, and learning new tools. Of course, that's not really what programming is. That's the easy part. Programming is about problem solving, code is simply the tool. Critical thinking/problem solving ability,…

I do believe these skills can be learned, but it's the enjoyment I derive from these things that I believe is the difference between some people and I. When I was in junior high I would do various logic problems for fun. I asked for nothing but a TI-85 for my birthday one year. There probably are people who are better than me at coding who hate the work. But I've hated every job I had until someone started paying me to sit, put on headphones, and solve problems with code. I go home with a sense of satisfaction, whether it's a skill, talent, passion is interesting but doesn't matter to me really.

Re: The Programming Talent Myth (2015)

#25

Post by adam-a » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 4:28 PM UTC

I think this is absolutely spot on. So many people put their programming expertise or productivity down to some innate quality (that is apparently overabundant in white men). To me it seems nearly every one of those rockstar ninjas has also spent an enormous amount of time learning their trade - usually a lot of time outside of formal school or a 9-5 job.

I think if there's one skill that might be innate and that helps people be better at programming, it's patience. Learning to program and learning programming tools is for most people a boring and extremely frustrating task. You need patience to stick with it after spending two days solid trying to debug some linker error or CSS bug or whatever esoteric programming issue you inevitably have to deal with.

Re: The Programming Talent Myth (2015)

#26

Post by vinceguidry » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 4:28 PM UTC

mawburn wrote: post #13

vinceguidry wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's outside of an employee's ability to decide to be. The business has deadlines and needs, and writes the checks, so it's up to them to decide how long it takes for an employee to become a net asset for the company.

Right, but I meant more along the lines of dedication in that the employee spends their free time outside of work, studying, experimenting, and learning. This can drastically reduce the ramp up time and has nothing to do with natural ability. A talented employee might be able to spend less time outside of work, but a dedicated one can be just as competent in the same amount of time. If you have a developer who has bo…

I dunno, I've seen people try to do this, and they either really really struggle, or don't and never get to that point. People who aren't talented really do need their hands held, self study just won't ever get them there.

Re: The Programming Talent Myth (2015)

#27

Post by maxxxxx » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 4:29 PM UTC

EpicEng wrote: post #11

> > The truth is that programming isn't a passion or a talent, it is just a bunch of skills that can be learned. This may be true if your definition of programming is the literal act of writing code / recalling syntax, and learning new tools. Of course, that's not really what programming is. That's the easy part. Programming is about problem solving, code is simply the tool. Critical thinking/problem solving ability,…

In my view programming is definitely a talent or just willingness to put up with things a lot of people wouldn't want to. When I explain to a lot of people in detail what I do during the day and the things I have to think about most people think this is a rather boring and tedious job they don't want to do.

It's the same for a lot of jobs. Intellectually I can do what pure business people or lawyers but I don't find it interesting so I don't have passion for it and will never do well.

On the other hand the first time I saw programming stuff I got excited immediately and had passion for it. I think that's my real talent.

Re: The Programming Talent Myth (2015)

#28

Post by nicwolff » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 4:30 PM UTC

itamarst wrote: post #14

EpicEng wrote: post #11

> > The truth is that programming isn't a passion or a talent, it is just a bunch of skills that can be learned. This may be true if your definition of programming is the literal act of writing code / recalling syntax, and learning new tools. Of course, that's not really what programming is. That's the easy part. Programming is about problem solving, code is simply the tool. Critical thinking/problem solving ability,…

Critical thinking, logic, empathy, etc. are all skills one can learn . And that's the point.

They can be taught to a five-year-old, I'm not sure they can be learned by a 25-year-old.

Re: The Programming Talent Myth (2015)

#29

Post by 0xdeadbeefbabe » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 4:32 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #2

While on the surface of it, sure, programming is a skill and not an innate talent, it would be foolish to compare it to other career fields in that way. You can go to school to learn how to be an architect, then go and get a job as an architect and be immediately productive. You can go to school to learn how to lay bricks, then go to a job site and immediately start building something. You cannot go to school to lear…

> The state of education at the moment is so bad that unschooled yet talented individuals can be much much better at fulfilling business requirements than trained and educated professionals.

I'll try that in medicine. Talented midwifes were delivering babies in the 1900s. Since midwifery is still a thing, maybe medicine is not as far advanced as you imply.

Seems like talent still plays a big role in any field.

Re: The Programming Talent Myth (2015)

#30

Post by EpicEng » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

Avshalom wrote: post #20

chiefalchemist wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Learnable. But problem solving doesn't come easy. Critical thinking is another tough nut to crack.

Is there any particular evidence that working programmers actually have either of those? Or are they just fuzzy-ass words we've made up to convince ourselves there's some hard barrier to the eventual reclassification of programming as "un-skilled labor"?

Not all of them, of course not. Like any profession there is a wide range of talent levels. However, to be _good_ at it I think you need all of these.