Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die' • Hacker News Board

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#221

Post by phkahler » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 1:25 PM UTC

orthecreedence wrote: post #75

phkahler wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Sex is one of the last places where women have more power than men. It's interesting that you point that out. Some claim that plenty of women use their sexuality to manipulate men, to trade sex for resources (marriage), and other such things. By legalizing prostitution you deprive the rest of the women from being able to do this - guys don't have to buy the cow when they can get the milk on an as-needed basis for…

Those managers and husbands and whoever else are still bound by social rules. Legalizing prostitution doesn't magically make it ok to go out and bang a bunch of hookers if you're married or have elevated social status. Are they more likely to do it? Maybe. But I think woman can still use their sexuality outside of the legal sex market to achieve the things they want, if that's what they choose to do.

You misunderstand. Women use their sexuality to manipulate men all the time without actually having sex or violating social rules. In fact a lot of them play this game for sport. Here's one woman's take on this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Manipulated_Man

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#222

Post by dwighttk » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 2:06 PM UTC

jzymbaluk wrote: post #45

colinb wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the obvious answer is because they could complain to the police if they were under threat. Of course, it being the obvious answer doesn't preclude it being nonsense, so feel free to tell me why I'm wrong.

I think the more obvious answer is that if the market is well-regulated and above-board, there is no need for the shady unregulated black market where kidnapping and human trafficking are things that happen.

Then why are the Netherlands "a source, destination, and transit country for men, women, and children subjected to sex trafficking and forced labor"[1]?

[1]https://www.state.gov/j/tip/rls/tiprpt/countries/2017/271251...

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#223

Post by shkkmo » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 9:16 PM UTC

blhack wrote: post #208

shkkmo wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All you need to do is provide a example of a moral hazard that would not be negated by legalization.

Incentivizing bringing either physical, emotional, or social harm to yourself. For instance: we don't allow people to work for less than minimum wage. We have things like OSHA which set minimum safe working requirements for dangerous jobs, etc. You may claim "yes, that's why we want sex-work regulated". Sex work already is regulated. Pornography is legal, stripping is legal, "cam" work is legal, burlesque is legal, e…

So I asked you for an example of a moral hazard that is not made worse by making prostitution illegal. Your example is "Incentivizing bringing either physical, emotional, or social harm to yourself."

First off, that is an extremely broad moral hazard and one that applies to pretty much all types of employment and not just prostitution.

Secondly, making prostition legal allows an organiztion like OSHA to set (and more importantly, enforce) safe working requirements. This is precisely and example of a moral hazard that is limited/negated by legalizatin.

> I'm just annoyed by the claim that there is no discussion to be had here

I've yet to see anyone make argument for keeping prostitution that isn't either A) Factually incorrect or B) Based on christianity. I'd be happy to discuss such an arguement if you have one.

However, the real debate that we should be having is the best ways to legalize prostitution to make sure that the moral hazards are minimized.

The "Scandinavian Approach" (make buying sex illegal but don't penalize selling) is certainly better than what we have in the US as it makes the justice system available to prostitutes who no longer face jail time for reporting crime committed against them. However helping buyers not get caught is a selling point for sellers, so it still drives the activity into hiding. Hidden activity is harder to regulate and increases the probability that violence can be committed against the sellers.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#224

Post by esarbe » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 11:41 AM UTC

ihsw2 wrote: post #203

esarbe wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not as if there were any absolute moral values. And if everybody involved can give informed consent, why should that not be enough?

Self-control and empathy are absolute moral values, there are many but these two form the core of the civilizing process. A society where these two are absent is a society of anarchy and self-destruction. To imply that all social norms and taboos are moot in the face of individuality is to imply that the individual is the core atom of humanity and it clearly is not -- it is the family.

Self-control and empathy are very useful moral values if you want to have a stable and peaceful society. I agree that they are 'good' moral values.

That doesn't make them absolute.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#225

Post by pastage » Sat, Apr 14, 2018, 8:27 PM UTC

Notorious_BLT wrote: post #141

pastage wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back breaking manual labor is not legal, or rather you can be forced to pay rather steep fines for doing it. (The definition of the words we use is key here)

Sorry for lack of precision, but I think my intent was clear. "Back-breaking" here means "difficult, and undesirable manual labor". What I meant in the first place (which I think was clear to begin with, regardless of language) is that many people make choices to do jobs they wouldn't otherwise because they need the money. Many jobs are taken for survival. Prostitution isn't really significantly different than any ot…

This was not my point, from what I've understood sex work is a really high risk work. You might argue that it could be made safer, but to state that prostitution is like any other work is just a sign of you ignoring the real problems that exist in the sex industry. You can not separate the act with the environment it is done in.

I would compare sex workers to something that is way more safer, mining jobs. You only have safe mining jobs if you strive towards it, same goes for sex work.

For the record I've lived with a family with a daughter/mother in the in the sex industry of a port city, but do not base my views on those anecdotal evidence. But sure it colours it a lot.