Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die' • Hacker News Board

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#141

Post by Notorious_BLT » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 8:42 PM UTC

pastage wrote: post #47

Notorious_BLT wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people do all kinds of jobs they wouldn't otherwise do for survival. Sex isn't magically different from backbreaking manual labor.

Back breaking manual labor is not legal, or rather you can be forced to pay rather steep fines for doing it. (The definition of the words we use is key here)

Sorry for lack of precision, but I think my intent was clear. "Back-breaking" here means "difficult, and undesirable manual labor".

What I meant in the first place (which I think was clear to begin with, regardless of language) is that many people make choices to do jobs they wouldn't otherwise because they need the money. Many jobs are taken for survival. Prostitution isn't really significantly different than any other undesirable job, aside from the emotional significance that we often assign to sex. But there isn't fundamentally anything about sex that differentiates it.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#142

Post by yters » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 8:42 PM UTC

esarbe wrote: post #135

yters wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You fail to distinguish between what people who call themselves "feminists" want, and what actually is in the best interest of women. If feminists suddenly started saying forced teenage marriages to abusive old men was in the best interest of women, they'd be wrong. Same in the case of prostitution.

Sorry, but now you've lost me. You say -- to paraphrase -- 'the True Feminist only speaks what's good for women and only I decide what's good for women'. That's not an argument, it's a dogma.

Say your kid decided it is best for him to eat ice cream all day and play in the street. Who actually knows what's best for him, you or the kid?

This is not particular to feminism. If we can clearly see someone choosing a self destructive lifestyle (i.e. drugs), even if it is what they really want, our responsibility is to help them get out of it.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#143

Post by bradjohnson » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 8:42 PM UTC

yters wrote: post #133

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am male and expressed an opinion that prostitution should be legal. But I have no desire to ever actually use such a service personally. My opinion is based largely on the fact that there are plenty of women who want to do this, or particularly enjoy it, as well as the unfortunate cases of people who feel they have no other choice. In either of those cases, punishing the people who are in this industry is wrong.

Punishment is a legitimate disincentive. Are there going to be fewer prostitutes when it is safe and easy? If the field is inherently injurious to women, why should we incentivize women to become prostitutes in any way?

Adult women are not helpless children and I believe that any societal pressure that they might feel to pursue a damaging lifestyle can be dealt with before any punishment for exercising bodily autonomy should ever be considered.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#144

Post by esarbe » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 8:44 PM UTC

yters wrote: post #121

esarbe wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make it sound as if lust was something bad. Interesting. Sexual intercourse is as much a necessity as is mining. More so, I'd say. Humans are not mining machines, they are reproduction machines. To deny this is to deny human nature. Also, sex in and in itself has nothing to do with respect or disrespect. It's simply a physical act.

It is. Lust makes one person dehumanize another person and use them as a tool for their own pleasure. Anytime we dehumanize each other it is bad, regardless of the negative consequences, of which there are many (broken families, STDs, domestic violence, child abuse, etc.)

Even if you could make prostitution go away by making it illegal -- you cannot, otherwise we woundn't have this discussion --, you go a tad far by making it responsible for broken families, STDs, domestic violence and child abuse.

All these things you'd have. With of without prostitution. These are issues of the human condition, not something that can be magicked away by prohibiting the act of sexual intercourse for economic benefits. It just doesn't work. There have been many moral and religious campaigns to make prostitution illegal. And still we have broken families, STDs, domestic violence, child abuse, etc.

As for the dehumanizing effect of sexual intercourse; you might be on to something. But sex is a strange thing that cannot really be understood by thinking very hard about it. So; some very independent women like to be degraded during sex, so do some men. This is just part of the spectrum. As long as everybody involved consents, I don't see the problem.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#145

Post by yters » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 8:44 PM UTC

yters wrote: post #131

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to diminish the hardships of prostitution. But its a matter of degree, isn't it? What performance artist isn't reduced to an instrument for another?

The body is an especially intimate part of one's being. To denigrate it to be another's tool is no different than slavery, even if one receives financial recompense.

People make bad decisions about their bodies all the time. When the decision is bad enough, you intervene. Drug abuse and alcoholism are clearer. You don't let your friend go down the path of heroin abuse and an early grave.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#146

Post by orthecreedence » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 8:44 PM UTC

yters wrote: post #128

orthecreedence wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> harm reduction in mind. Yep. I'm seeing many, many comments about how prositution is bad. I'm not seeing any that suggest workable alternatives. Most seem to be socialist-leaning (attaching market incentive to sex is bad), but we don't have socialism, and sex workers need protection now . Ok, so whether or not we agree that prostitution is bad, what do we do about it? I think legalizing/regulating makes a lot more…

Are people more likely to do something that is safe or is dangerous? We can make similar arguments for all illegal activities. Why don't we make murder safer for the murderers? They're going to murder anyways, so we might as well keep one of the parties alive and healthy. Why don't we just give thieves all the free money they want? They are going to steal anyways, so we might as well make it more convenient for them.…

I don't think comparing sex work to murder is warranted. Murder is almost universally agreed upon as being morally wrong. Sex work is not as universal.

Also, murder generally involves a willing participant and a non-willing participant. Sex work, is generally two willing participants, especially if it's done with the protection of a state's legal system.

I think the problem with prostitution is that people apply the moral platform of what happens in underground sex work to above-ground sex work. But so many things change once it becomes legal that it's not an effective comparison.

My goal with sex work would be to vastly reduce the number of unwilling participants and offer protection for those who follow the law while engaging in it. I think "it makes me feel bad therefor should be illegal" is understandable, but not incredibly nuanced and ends up hurting many more people in the long run.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#147

Post by JoeAltmaier » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 8:45 PM UTC

yters wrote: post #131

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to diminish the hardships of prostitution. But its a matter of degree, isn't it? What performance artist isn't reduced to an instrument for another?

The body is an especially intimate part of one's being. To denigrate it to be another's tool is no different than slavery, even if one receives financial recompense.

E.g. actor, singer, laborer, masseuse... as a matter of degree, each is a 'slave' to their client(s)? I think that's exaggerating the case.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#148

Post by yters » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 8:45 PM UTC

yters wrote: post #121

esarbe wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make it sound as if lust was something bad. Interesting. Sexual intercourse is as much a necessity as is mining. More so, I'd say. Humans are not mining machines, they are reproduction machines. To deny this is to deny human nature. Also, sex in and in itself has nothing to do with respect or disrespect. It's simply a physical act.

It is. Lust makes one person dehumanize another person and use them as a tool for their own pleasure. Anytime we dehumanize each other it is bad, regardless of the negative consequences, of which there are many (broken families, STDs, domestic violence, child abuse, etc.)

Consent is not a magic wand that makes all actions moral.

And yes, brokeness will be with us for all time. So, your solution is to just allow things to get worse? Sometimes you have to take a hard stand on things to help people not destroy themselves.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#149

Post by Freestyler_3 » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 8:46 PM UTC

yters wrote: post #137

Freestyler_3 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's just ignore all the women who want to do this work, to protect the few who didn't want to but felt like it was the only way to make ends meet. But yes, I am sure people generally agree that the women who don't want to be sex workers should have other options (or be made aware of options).

Even if someone wants to do something, that doesn't mean it is good for them. We as a society should not incentivize people to do self harm, even if the person chooses the self harm. It is essentially incentivizing women to commit suicide.

What isn't good for them? How do you get from sex to suicide?

And how far can society go when dictating what a person can or can not do? People are allowed to smoke and drink. People have sex without payments happening too.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#150

Post by duncan_bayne » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 8:46 PM UTC

orthecreedence wrote: post #75

phkahler wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Sex is one of the last places where women have more power than men. It's interesting that you point that out. Some claim that plenty of women use their sexuality to manipulate men, to trade sex for resources (marriage), and other such things. By legalizing prostitution you deprive the rest of the women from being able to do this - guys don't have to buy the cow when they can get the milk on an as-needed basis for…

Those managers and husbands and whoever else are still bound by social rules. Legalizing prostitution doesn't magically make it ok to go out and bang a bunch of hookers if you're married or have elevated social status. Are they more likely to do it? Maybe. But I think woman can still use their sexuality outside of the legal sex market to achieve the things they want, if that's what they choose to do.

That's only true for the middle class. Once your social status is sufficiently high it doesn't matter. Case in point, the current POTUS is known for banging hookers.