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Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

theguardian.com

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Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#71

Post by jdavis703 »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #30
dilap wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's also just an absurd restriction from a perspective that values individual liberty. "my body, my choice" "consenting adults" -- all that goes out the window when it's sex for cash? it makes no sense.

...all that goes out the window when it's sex for cash? only if it is a private transaction. Making pornography is legal. You are correct, there lies no sense here.

Making pornography is only legal if you comply with certain regulations. For example you need to validate that all the "actors" were adults (sane enough). But then you also need to maintain a place that is accessible to law enforcement during business hours so they can drop in and check your records to validate all the "actors" were over the legal age (sane enough, especially if the thinking is only businesses generate porn).

But then the way the laws are written, a couple recording a sex tape is covered under these regulations. If they don't maintain the proper records, they could find themselves being indicated under child porn laws, even though they were both consenting adults.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#72

Post by orthecreedence »

ihsw2 wrote: post #57
orthecreedence wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So anybody with a job is a slave to economics? Isn't this just capitalism/free markets in general? Seems like you're saying women have more freedom by being told they cannot do something that elevates them economically. Women are still free to have non-paid sex with whomever they want. But if they choose to make money doing it as well, I believe that is another form of empowerment.

Consent is removed by economic force rather than physical force. Performing sexual acts is much more than plain physical labor like lawn maintenance.

So what's your solution?

Sex robots? (I'm not kidding). If there are people willing to pay for sex, and people willing to have sex for money, how do you stop them from entering into this transaction, whether regulated or unregulated?

I can see you are morally opposed to prostitution, but, like, what's your solution here? What, in your head, is the lesser of all evils that can be practically implemented and enforced?

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#73

Post by rosser »

ihsw2 wrote: post #62
coenhyde wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah no. If you listen to the sex workers who are generally WOMEN they advocate for legalizing and regulating sex work. Because they want a safe environment to work in. By making sex work illegal you are preventing people in the industry from going to the authorities to report all the things you are against. You will never stop prostitution by saying it is illegal, all you are doing is allowing the criminal elements to…

How is prostitution different from rape, where sexual autonomy is removed by economic force rather than physical force?

How is having a job different from slavery, where personal autonomy is removed by economic force rather than physical force?

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#74

Post by jdavis703 »

kartan wrote: post #59
dilap wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's also just an absurd restriction from a perspective that values individual liberty. "my body, my choice" "consenting adults" -- all that goes out the window when it's sex for cash? it makes no sense.

> "my body, my choice" "consenting adults" -- all that goes out the window when it's sex for cash? it makes no sense. This is true, only if individuals have a good education, job opportunities, a broad enough safety net, etc. Otherwise, you are just pushing abused women or women with no resources to submit to sexual servitude. When you have a high correlation between prostitution and poverty, you are just realizing t…

By that reasoning all dangerous jobs should be off limits to poor people. Young people shouldn't be able to register for military service (especially during wars when "bonuses" are high). Poor people shouldn't be allowed to work as garbage collectors (garbage collectors have a higher fatality rate than law enforcement). The list could go on...

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#75

Post by orthecreedence »

phkahler wrote: post #64
orthecreedence wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I completely disagree. Sex is one of the last places where women have more power than men. I believe that illegalizing prostitution and other forms of sex acts is a way for a male-dominated world to try to, yet again, limit the power women have in society. A regulated sex marketplace is going to mean women can be much more picky about who they choose to sleep with, and can do so much more safely. They can use…

>> Sex is one of the last places where women have more power than men. It's interesting that you point that out. Some claim that plenty of women use their sexuality to manipulate men, to trade sex for resources (marriage), and other such things. By legalizing prostitution you deprive the rest of the women from being able to do this - guys don't have to buy the cow when they can get the milk on an as-needed basis for…

Those managers and husbands and whoever else are still bound by social rules. Legalizing prostitution doesn't magically make it ok to go out and bang a bunch of hookers if you're married or have elevated social status.

Are they more likely to do it? Maybe. But I think woman can still use their sexuality outside of the legal sex market to achieve the things they want, if that's what they choose to do.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#76

Post by eilyra »

ihsw2 wrote: post #62
coenhyde wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah no. If you listen to the sex workers who are generally WOMEN they advocate for legalizing and regulating sex work. Because they want a safe environment to work in. By making sex work illegal you are preventing people in the industry from going to the authorities to report all the things you are against. You will never stop prostitution by saying it is illegal, all you are doing is allowing the criminal elements to…

How is prostitution different from rape, where sexual autonomy is removed by economic force rather than physical force?

Consent. In a proper/safe environment the prostitute has the option of declining a client. Such an environment would hopefully be easier to create if it was legalized.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#77

Post by cornholio »

ihsw2 wrote: post #11
coenhyde wrote: post #6

Just legalize it already! It's been proven time and time again across many countries around the world that legalizing and regulating prostitution creates a safer environment for the girls AND the customers.

Prostitution is abhorrent to the women's rights movement -- it is another tool of oppression. Women are having sex with men whom they otherwise wouldn't have sex with -- we should be removing the need for sex work rather than accommodating it. Sex "for survival," child prostitution, sex trafficking -- none of these go away when the stigma and illegality are removed and if anything it gets worse because clients just a…

You are of course correct in that prostitution is abhorrent to the women's rights movement. That's because women's rights movements see prostitutes as collateral damage in their war against male oppression: prostitutes should not exist, therefore we can pretend like they don't exist.

Political ideology over reality, this is the sad story of many of the policies pushed both by the conservatives and progressives, and here they agree. The real people are left with the consequences, pushed to the fringes and victimized both by the state and the traffickers.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#78

Post by Shivetya »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #2

I think the missing discussion is that some bad law exists, but that SESTA/FOSTA is not that bad law: Websites should not be immune to prosecution for intentionally facilitating criminal activity. Section 230 is a bad thing and it going away is a good thing. Headlines I've seen like "sex workers are the canary in the coal mine for free speech" are not really accurate, because this is about activity which is and has b…

Well Soliciting Prostitution is not a federal crime in the US however what the AG and other LE officials do to get around that is go after people under The Travel Act. This is where fifty of the ninety three charges against the Backpage founder where put to nail him "for prostitution" because the Travel Act allows prosecutors to charge people with a Federal crime for violating a state crime if they cross state borders.

That use of the Travel Act to combat prostitution has been used to get any site they wanted to shut down. In other words, since Congress isn't about to reign them in nor the courts prosecutors at the Federal level can do about what they please. This is not to say backpage was innocent, only in how non Federal crimes can become such by stretching intent

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#79

Post by aphextron »

skookumchuck wrote: post #44
elil17 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In ye old days people thought charging interest was a sin right in there with adulatory

And yet people lent money anyway, they just used complex accounting maneuvers to obfuscate it.

And they still do. Look up "Islamic Mortgages". The level of hoops people will jump through to keep some semblance of logical consistency in their nonsense is just absurd.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#80

Post by nfoz »

cornholio wrote: post #60
wallace_f wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, that's the absolute BS about it. That somehow government should intervene in your personal life choices that affect no one other than consenting adults. However, I would hope no one has to resort to unwanted sex work to afford life and liberty--just for a simple roof over their head, for food and basic healthcare. That's what I fear with legalizing prostitution... I just personally think the idea of knowing peop…

On the other hand, people faced with economic hardships that are choosing prostitution do so at the expense of some other choice that, to them, is even more horrible - otherwise they wouldn't do it. It's hard to argue that prostitution is always a damaging choice that should always be forbidden like selling your organs, selling yourself into slavery, highly dangerous drugs etc. This is why I think the economic constr…

I think the law will always encapsulate some idea of morality.

You've already suggested some places where US law restricts contracts that might seem to be between consenting adults. It's a moral choice for the law to restrict you from "selling your organs, selling yourself into slavery, highly dangerous drugs etc."

I think there's good reason for the law to be protective, because merely allowing some contracts to be valid, will allow large power-discrepancies to effectively force people into them.

Whether prostitution falls into this category is a question of culture/morality.

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