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Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

nytimes.com

331–340 of 541 posts

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#331
post #42

It turns out that a signature on a bank check means nothing. Neither does the payer name on the check. Not the amount in cursive. Nor does the check paper. The only things that are checked are the digits of the amount, and the account number. The rest of the check can be complete garbage, and the check will go through and the bank will pay it. Then the banks will blame you, the account holder. I learned this the hard…

It amazes me that cheques are still used. I'm 36 and I've never issued a cheque, I think I was issued a cheque book with my first account but never used it.

I’m 29. I and many people I know have used checks several times over the past decade. It always surprises me when I read these stories on hn about how checks are dead, but this is not dissimilar to the mentality that self driving cars will be ready any day now.

Maybe this is how life is like in the Valley, but even so I doubt it’s the experience or thought process of the non-tech worker.

I just used a check this month to pay for my earnest money deposit for a house I’m buying. Before that, I’ve had to use either money order or personal check for the deposit and application fee of every apartment I’ve ever rented. Several landlords only accepted checks for the regular rent as well.

They weren’t slumlords (as some of the other commenters here assume), those who took only checks for rent were individuals who rented out a house or apartment building and took good care of it.

I’ve paid my gas bills with checks back when I lived with college roommates.

Checks aren’t as ubiquitous as they once were, but I remember in my life time, growing up, when they were ubiquitous.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#332
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It amazes me that cheques are still used. I'm 36 and I've never issued a cheque, I think I was issued a cheque book with my first account but never used it.

I’m 29. I and many people I know have used checks several times over the past decade. It always surprises me when I read these stories on hn about how checks are dead, but this is not dissimilar to the mentality that self driving cars will be ready any day now. Maybe this is how life is like in the Valley, but even so I doubt it’s the experience or thought process of the non-tech worker. I just used a check this mont…

I assume the person you are replying to is not American due to their spelling of "cheque."

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not a bank transfer?

Tenant: "Reverse this payment from 6 weeks ago." Bank: "Why?" Tenant: "Well my landlord [tale of woe]." Bank: "So I'm hearing that the payment was unauthorized." Tenant: "Yes!" Bank: "Reversed." Landlord: "... YOU DID WHAT?!" Bank: " sigh We don't want to be in this discussion." Landlord: "YOU HAD ONE JOB!" Bank: "It's not sitting between two adults trying to figure which of them screwed the other. We've got courts f…

In the US, bank transfers are reversible? (Here in Germany, if you sent the money it's basically gone, you can only reverse payments that the other side "pulled" from your account) Always interesting how the types of service available and their rules shape what's used where.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#334
post #194

It turns out that a signature on a bank check means nothing. Neither does the payer name on the check. Not the amount in cursive. Nor does the check paper. The only things that are checked are the digits of the amount, and the account number. The rest of the check can be complete garbage, and the check will go through and the bank will pay it. Then the banks will blame you, the account holder. I learned this the hard…

>>The only things that are checked are the digits of the amount, and the account number. Ha! Not even that. In the cheque clearing process, about the only thing that ever gets checked (even by automated processes) is the MICR line (account/transit and institution number). Everything else (EVERYTHING ELSE) is just assumed to match whatever the person entered at the ATM/image capture app/teller window. The bank conside…

Came here to say this. The "spelled out" amount takes priority if there's a conflict in the two values.

Also worth noting, it doesn't need to be in cursive. I spent all my life struggling with writing in cursive on checks (because it's pretty much the only place I ever do it). One day, someone told me I could print it (it just never occurred to me that this was acceptable) and I've been much happier ever since (during the, you know, 10 times a year I actually write checks).

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And even earlier in other EU countries I imagine, as I was in Luxembourg in 2001 and used pin to pay in supermnarkets with my UK card.

Yes, I think it was way earlier than 2006. In France, every card in 1995 had chip and pin.

I think there were a few years where both chip & pin and signatures were in use, but 2006 was the date that chip and pin was mandatory

http://www.theukcardsassociation.org.uk/news/10yearschipandp...

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#336
post #299
post #8

Signatures haven't been required for credit cards in many other countries for quite some time now. I have often wondered why the US has historically lagged behind for everyday banking. (e.g. email money transfers, chip enabled cards, pin number verification, tap to pay)

The FT suggests this is a regulation vs competition problem, where regulation has "won": https://www.ft.com/content/03a1f4b0-06d3-11e4-ba32-00144feab... It's a bit of a prisoners-dilemma thing: new technology can only be adopted with sufficient coordination, but each individual party is only interested in cooperating if they think they will "win" from it more than their competitors . The US seems to be a very bad pla…

This seems believable to me.

I mean, in tech, look at the HTTP "referer" header, which is spelled wrong. Imagine what a hassle it would be to fix that.

If there was a Leviathan that could force every vendor and user to eliminate the old spelling or else, it could get done a lot faster.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#337

In the UK cards moved to 'chip and pin' in 2006! Fraud in a 'customer present' scenario is very low at our stores. The last fraud in fact was a foreign card that didn't support chip and pin. I can't believe Visa and MasterCard have not made it mandatory world wide... ...except card fraud lossed are recharged to the merchant so perhaps they don't care? Out of interest there is a special exception for disabled people w…

AFAIK chip and pin shifts liability for fraud onto the credit customer. While banks may be more than eager to do so, they may also be wary of a customer backlash over this.

Not in Europe.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#338
post #8

Signatures haven't been required for credit cards in many other countries for quite some time now. I have often wondered why the US has historically lagged behind for everyday banking. (e.g. email money transfers, chip enabled cards, pin number verification, tap to pay)

because legacy tech wants to be amortised over long time periods. If you start implementing things later you can pick the best tech. US banking was among the first to become digital and thus still has to maintain technical choices of the past

Also due to some ODD ideas about banks by some of the founders you have not got the nationwide consolidation you did in the EU - the federal nature and relatively weak central government doesn't help either.

With a small number of banks and a stronger central government which can exert pressure you can see why the UK and EU are ahead.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#339
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cloning is not possible with chip cards pin or no pin. That's the whole reason US issuers switched to chips from mag stripes.

It is possible to clone chip and pin cards. Not easy, but possible: https://www.kaspersky.com/blog/chip-n-pin-cloning/21502/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/09/13/chip_and_pin_securi...

I didn't know about the first attack you mentioned, but it still seems to boil down to cloning non-EMV card onto card that behaves like EMV. For this to work I think that the terminal must be horribly misconfigured and then it almost certainly defrauds the merchant and not the original cardholder as I don't see how merchant's bank would ever authorize such transaction.

The second on you mention is based on exploiting flawed RNGs in certain ATM implementations and using that to replay transactions that happened elsewhere. Fix is obvious: don't use flawed RNGs.

Third known attack on EMV is similar to the "accept any PIN" part of the first, but done by MitMing the interface between terminal and card. This relies on the fact, that "No PIN was required" and "Correct PIN entered" produces same transaction certificate. This also can be mitigated by altering the terminal configuration.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#340

"Mikiah Westbrooks, the owner of Brix, a wine bar in Detroit, said she worried that skipping signatures will affect her workers' tips." May tips disappear next.

Ah so she's worried that she might have to pay her workers more is what she sis really saying - I normally leave a cash tip after paying by card in the UK
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