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Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

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Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#81

Post by sx »

nodata wrote: post #77
sx wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not advocating tax evasion. I think, US for example, is a great place to do business, as opposed to Greece, because the letter of the law is followed and the rules are clear to everyone. I am just saying that the Greek government was so inefficient and the public sector so bloated, that in some sense tax evasion was helping put people's money at more efficient uses.

More efficient such as..?

Such as building their own private businesses and employing other people in the private sector.

For example, it is much more beneficial to the country to build, say a new hotel (as this is Greece's biggest industry), instead of wasting the money on more public-railroad-type of money wasting businesses.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#82

Post by mfukar »

sx wrote: post #71
mfukar wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Shut down public transportation, public health care, public telecommunications and public power? Do you have an equally brief transition plan?

I am not advocating something that extreme here. Not sure how familiar you are with Greece. Each of these organizations is overstaffed to a great extend. Then some of them are totally useless, like the public railroad. On the top of that there are businesses that would be very healthy in the private sector (see banks) and that the government has absolutely no reason to be in. The fact that the government is actually…

I happen to be somewhat familiar, since I've been living there for 26 years. The majority of state enterprises (or those the state has a share in) right now are profitable, with the notable exceptions of a) railroads and b) the off-the-books units created by ministries to handle short-term tasks. Could they benefit from a restructuring and would lay offs be helpful? Probably so.

Does the state's involvement in public corporation screw up incentives? Telecommunications is a good example of why not. Banks still don't convince me; they pay taxes with interest rates significantly less than 18-20%, which is the norm and they have resisted any and all attempts of the state for policy changes.

Personally, I am more concerned with other issues: the legislation that often proves to be shortsighted and inefficient, limited (and that's a euphemism) opportunities to young entrepreneurs, poor education, but the one thing that bugs me the most is that Greeks (yeah, I'm one of them) have no regard for public interest. The why is a longer story than what can fit in this post.

PS. You hinted to "shut down the money-loosing public businesses" as the "more appropriate solution"; if you're not advocating for it I may have to brush up on my English comprehension skills.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#83

Post by loewenskind »

jimmyk wrote: post #64
loewenskind wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? 300 workers making $30k/year is less than $10 million.

Well, the workers are being paid less than $10 million. But if they receive any sort of benefits then their cost to the employer goes up quite a bit. And you also have to factor in payroll taxes. The cost of a worker is not just his/her salary.

True. And that goes for the executives as well, more so in fact (e.g. better health care plans and so on).

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#84

Post by varjag »

mindslight wrote: post #80
varjag wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting in representative democracy is statistical quality, so no, not one in particular but a nation as a whole. Like in the USA you might not be personally responsible for Iraq war, but as an American, you are. Of course such property makes it attractive to neglect personal political responsibility. But in some situations, like with Greeks now, it can come back and bite you in the ass. (Also, read the article - it's…

To be partially responsible for something, there must be something one could have done that may have prevented it. Please tell me as an American, what I could have done that could have possibly prevented the Iraq war. I'm not asking for monumental results, but at least what would have withdrawn my alleged contribution to the war? I did read the article, and all of its prescriptions presume that the Greek people are i…

You could not do much I'm afraid, it's sad but it still holds you responsible as part of the group. May sound too harsh, but collective responsibility is acknowledged explicitly e.g. in post-war German ideology. Being taught that in schools might alone make people more considerate of their choices in general.

As for the article, it suggests that Greeks despise and distrust each other in first place. Not sure it's a good starting point for anarchic type of society. Also, notice how the most vocal protesters there were the government workers (who earn triple of the private sector on average).

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#85

Post by w00pla2 »

StavrosK wrote: post #12

Something the article doesn't mention (or that I didn't see when I skimmed it): The value of the entire Greek church is in the billions of euros, and nothing is taxed . The government asked them to be taxed a while ago, and the church said that, if they were taxed, they would have to stop charity work because they didn't have enough money. Meanwhile, the high priests wear 30k euro hats and ride around in limousines.…

> The value of the entire Greek church is in the billions of euros, and nothing is taxed.

You know that NGOs are also not taxed?

I personally find a lot of people who are against religion who wants churches taxed. The only reason is that they have an axe to grind.

Churches (and NGOs) are by definition not wealth creators. A church elder praying or a nun giving food to the poor does not create wealth (but fulfills a whole different social function).

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#86

Post by jancona »

mindslight wrote: post #66

This entire article presumes that the Greek people are responsible for the debts of the Greek government.

In practice, they are, unless they can pick up and leave, taking their assets with them. (Any Greeks thinking about doing this, I suggest you do it soon.) It may not be fair, but the last paragraph of the article lays out the choices pretty well. They're all bad, and the people of Greece will feel the pain either way.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#87

Post by sx »

mfukar wrote: post #82
sx wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not advocating something that extreme here. Not sure how familiar you are with Greece. Each of these organizations is overstaffed to a great extend. Then some of them are totally useless, like the public railroad. On the top of that there are businesses that would be very healthy in the private sector (see banks) and that the government has absolutely no reason to be in. The fact that the government is actually…

I happen to be somewhat familiar, since I've been living there for 26 years. The majority of state enterprises (or those the state has a share in) right now are profitable, with the notable exceptions of a) railroads and b) the off-the-books units created by ministries to handle short-term tasks. Could they benefit from a restructuring and would lay offs be helpful? Probably so. Does the state's involvement in public…

A point with which I strongly disagree is that some public businesses are profitable so we should leave them alone. First of all, it's trivial to be profitable if you control a monopoly. Also, being profitable doesn't mean you are efficient, some things could be done much more effectively in the private sector. Also, by being overstaffed, even if profitable, you are not allowing all these people working for you to do something more productive.

Beyond that, when talking about profitability, you should consider pension plans and future obligations. Some of these businesses might have a positive balance sheet for the year but what's going to happen if you consider their future, inflated, obligations. A good example are the pensions the Public Electric Company employees get. They are mostly funded by the government.

Let's see why it screws up incentives: -- What do you think any of the people working in the public sector tries to optimize? Is it the successe of the business they are working on? Do they try to advance their careers? Or do they try to work as little as possible? -- If an employee is not good, is a government controlled company ever going to fire them? -- The guy who controls the supplies in the hospitals, does he ever have to report to somebody about that? -- Do you know a single person in the public sector that he has ever been promoted or fired because of his skills or lack there of?

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#88

Post by mfukar »

sx wrote: post #87
mfukar wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I happen to be somewhat familiar, since I've been living there for 26 years. The majority of state enterprises (or those the state has a share in) right now are profitable, with the notable exceptions of a) railroads and b) the off-the-books units created by ministries to handle short-term tasks. Could they benefit from a restructuring and would lay offs be helpful? Probably so. Does the state's involvement in public…

A point with which I strongly disagree is that some public businesses are profitable so we should leave them alone. First of all, it's trivial to be profitable if you control a monopoly. Also, being profitable doesn't mean you are efficient, some things could be done much more effectively in the private sector. Also, by being overstaffed, even if profitable, you are not allowing all these people working for you to do…

A point with which I strongly disagree is that some public businesses are profitable so we should leave them alone.

A point which I didn't make. Improvements can always take place. But no matter; not all businesses I was talking about are monopolies. In fact, the telecom sector is free since 2001, and it's doing great, considering HTO possessed 100% of the infrastructure up to that point.

Incentives are given by management. It is extremely easy for any business to motivate their employers, as it is easy to lay off slackers. It mostly does not happen; this is a result of corruption, incoherent legislation, and poor law enforcement as well as financial and management review (among others). I've already mentioned those factors, I view them as extremely dangerous for our economy and I highly doubt they'll be waived in any reasonable amount of time. I think we mostly agree on this part.

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