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‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

nytimes.com

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Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#31

Post by rohit2412 »

zo1 wrote: post #18
rohit2412 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Americans are citizens of their country whether they can prove it or not. Tell that to the undocumented immigrants. You forget that you have a birth certificate to prove you are a citizen.

So then why don't they go and apply to be documented? I'm sure their foreign birth certificate is enough to prove their existence. Oh, that's right, it's illegal and would get declined. Hence the correct term: "illegal immigrants". The topic is complicated and touchy enough without it being muddled with incorrect terminology.

I didn't want to fall into this debate, hence used the politically correct term.

My point being, the other guy is arguing that USA doesn't require identity documents, which is laughable. You need SSN just to earn money in USA.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#32

Post by 8note »

Zak wrote: post #20
thetruthseeker1 wrote: post #14

I disagree with the assessment. It seems like any form in which the government tries to identify you is being compared to the scary Orwellian dystopia. There is no cost benefit analysis. Sure it could be misused, however it can also be used in a super beneficial way. India is a country where some Indians have never obatained birth certificates, there was no equivalent SSN system, often resources are poorly distribute…

I think it's a mixed bag. Not Orwellian: * Requiring identification to get welfare benefits. The article mentions fraud is a big issue. * Use of biometrics. It sounds creepy at first, but without a robust system of record keeping to base the ID card on, this is a good way to ensure each one is unique. Orwellian: * Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. * Requiring a government ID to buy a pre…

are those really orwellian though?

they could make an orwellian system on top of it where they destroy government IDs to unperson you, but in and of itself, those aren't very orwellian.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#33

Post by [deleted] »

thisisit wrote: post #6

This article gives a good overview of the promises and issues of the Aadhar system. I might be wrong but it doesn't add anything new which hasn't been covered in other Aadhar related articles submitted earlier. The system has done some good. Mostly in the public schemes area where it was originally intended to stop corruption. But, there are some serious issues with the system. First is the internet infrastructure. A…

[deleted]

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#34

Post by nsenifty »

thisisit wrote: post #6

This article gives a good overview of the promises and issues of the Aadhar system. I might be wrong but it doesn't add anything new which hasn't been covered in other Aadhar related articles submitted earlier. The system has done some good. Mostly in the public schemes area where it was originally intended to stop corruption. But, there are some serious issues with the system. First is the internet infrastructure. A…

> There is a funny interview of a supposed Income Tax guy:

That's just a wrong example. He was not an officer in the government at the time of the interview. He worked for the tax department long before cloud computing was even popular.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#35

Post by captn3m0 »

thisisit wrote: post #6

This article gives a good overview of the promises and issues of the Aadhar system. I might be wrong but it doesn't add anything new which hasn't been covered in other Aadhar related articles submitted earlier. The system has done some good. Mostly in the public schemes area where it was originally intended to stop corruption. But, there are some serious issues with the system. First is the internet infrastructure. A…

As hilarious as that video is, it is quite out of context in a Aadhaar discussion.

If someone is interested in issues with aadhaar,the rethink aadhaar website has a nice FAQ[0]

[0]: https://rethinkaadhaar.in/faqs/

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#36

Post by captn3m0 »

haltingproblem wrote: post #13
firasd wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The money goes into people's bank accounts which already have many know-your-customer ID requirements. If also requiring Aadhaar for bank accounts was the limit of its mandate there would be a lot less outrage. The creeping, maximalist scope is what causes the increasing discomfort among people about this program.

So the bank was able to fulfill KYC requirements for someone who qualifies for a below the poverty level scheme? Lack of papers is what Aadhaar is supposed to cure. You are passing the identity buck. These people are so poor they live their whole lives without a solid roof over their head. They don't have a birth certificate, a driver's license, a passport. The mere mention of these documents is somewhat of a cruel j…

This would be a good argument if it were true.

>It now turns out that almost all the Aadhaar numbers issued till date – 99.97 per cent – have been issued to people who already had at least two existing identification documents.

Even the poorest in India have had ration cards.

[0]: https://thewire.in/law/most-aadhar-cards-issued-to-those-who...

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#37

Post by shripadk »

Zak wrote: post #20
thetruthseeker1 wrote: post #14

I disagree with the assessment. It seems like any form in which the government tries to identify you is being compared to the scary Orwellian dystopia. There is no cost benefit analysis. Sure it could be misused, however it can also be used in a super beneficial way. India is a country where some Indians have never obatained birth certificates, there was no equivalent SSN system, often resources are poorly distribute…

I think it's a mixed bag. Not Orwellian: * Requiring identification to get welfare benefits. The article mentions fraud is a big issue. * Use of biometrics. It sounds creepy at first, but without a robust system of record keeping to base the ID card on, this is a good way to ensure each one is unique. Orwellian: * Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. * Requiring a government ID to buy a pre…

> Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest.

Possibly a security measure? Schools are increasingly becoming targets for anti social elements of late. I wouldn't be surprised if the public, on its own volition, pressurizes the government to have stringent security checks in schools.

> Requiring a government ID to buy a prepaid SIM card.

You can't authenticate without Aadhaar OTP. And don't expect the government to send OTP to an unverified mobile number. That would put huge liability on the government if tomorrow you claim that the number never belonged to you. Biometric scanners are not ubiquitous, so the need for linking SIM cards for authentication.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#38

Post by captn3m0 »

shripadk wrote: post #30
firasd wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, even the very poor in India have voter IDs and the schemes in question already require a ration card. You started off by asking about how to reduce corruption (and I answered that as long as there are subsidies there is going to be leakage) but you keep bringing it back to some airy theoretical concept about 'identity in the state' when Aadhaar is a practical force in the country right now. I haven't linked my A…

> I haven't linked my Aadhaar to my phone yet and if the Supreme Court hadn't extended the deadline my phone would have stopped working by now. This thing is a real and present menace, not just a political science question. I guess you are attacking this issue keeping privacy in mind. However, from the Government's point of view, the need for linking mobile phones is to have a secured way of authenticating your Aadha…

While your argument is sound (2-way linking with Aadhaar saves the government from litigation), it is not the argument that the GoI has made for SIM linking.

The AG has argued in court that mobile linking is to prevent terrorists from getting Aadhaar. This is on top of the weird order that DoT issued: https://www.huffingtonpost.in/chitranshul-sinha/no-the-supre...

(tl;dr: DoT quotes a Supreme Court ruling which questioned the government on KYC-norms for telecom industry, which the DoT conveniently reworded to mean "Aadhaar"-only)

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#39

Post by captn3m0 »

woolvalley wrote: post #28
firasd wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, even the very poor in India have voter IDs and the schemes in question already require a ration card. You started off by asking about how to reduce corruption (and I answered that as long as there are subsidies there is going to be leakage) but you keep bringing it back to some airy theoretical concept about 'identity in the state' when Aadhaar is a practical force in the country right now. I haven't linked my A…

So before Aadhaar, what required govt photo ID or tax ID verification in India? In the USA for example, you need photo ID & a SSN to open pretty much any financial account or to fly. Many businesses require ID to do business with them on an adhoc basis. I also know in many countries ID is required to open any telecom account. Is the fact that aadhaar is attached to biometrics and the fear of future genocide the root…

We have a PAN-system which was used for all financial transactions, including things like company registrations, tax filings, bank accounts, loans etc.

Now, you must link your Aadhaar with your:

- PAN, before you can file a tax or register a company

- Bank Account, or else it could be shut down (this was pushed down the parliament via a amendment to the prevention of money laundering act)

Most countries have varying KYC-norms. However, Aadhaar is a very-weak KYC-source. It doesn't require proof of citizenship (foreigners can get aadhaar) or residence (you are required to stay for 180 days in India, but UIDAI doesn't verify this). It doesn't verify proof of residence either (it was meant as a identity document for everyone - even those without homes). Add this to the fact that UIDAI has fired half of the agencies on grounds of fraud who were responsible for Enrollment.

There are a lot more issues with Aadhaar: there is a no proper security procedure, no audit reports have been published ever, and despite the numerous breaches, UIDAI refuses to take a proper stance.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#40

Post by captn3m0 »

shripadk wrote: post #25
middleclick wrote: post #4

Something related: it doesn't inspire confidence when the person who runs UIDAI (the government organization running the fingerprint program) says this: https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/aadhaar-data-safe-behind-5-i... > Aadhaar Data Safe Behind 5 Feet Thick Walls: Centre to Supreme Court This just shows how poor the understanding of digital security is...

That's a biased article and is taking things out of context. A better understanding would be found at the UIDAI page itself: https://uidai.gov.in/component/fsf/?view=faq&catid=27 To their credit, the leaks that have happened until now haven't happened directly from UIDAI database but by partners who had poorly designed API endpoints which exposed citizen identity data. At the very least, biometric data has never been…

As a security researcher in india, Aadhaar is riddled with Security holes that are glaring. There is clear way to report these issues and nothing gets fixed.

I've had a possible-RCE vulnerability reported to UIDAI since February-2017 and there has been no action. The CERT-IN (Indian equivalent of CERT-US) has been aware of the issue, but there is no fix in sight.

The easiest to do exploits (fingerprint cloning) are already happening: https://www.medianama.com/2018/03/223-cloned-thumb-prints-us...

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