‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#21

Post by haltingproblem » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 8:16 PM UTC

shripadk wrote: post #19

mindslight wrote: post #3

> "If you are not able to prove your identity, you are disenfranchised," he said. "You have no existence." This is so fucking disingenuous, and really demonstrates the heart of the problem. If you create a bunch of systems that rely on totalitarian cataloging of humans for their basics of every day life, then when some individuals aren't tracked it sure looks like those individuals' problem. But really the problem is…

How do you efficiently distribute benefits if you cannot ascertain if the individual is a Citizen, hasn't already taken his/her fair share or isn't scamming the exchequer? You may disagree with the idea but in a country which has a very small tax base and caters to a huge population efficiently distributing benefits becomes the most important priority. Up until Aadhaar, the benefits meant for illiterate/lower income…

> The core issue being that for the poorest of the poor, privacy is secondary to survival.

Privacy is probably not on their radar.

However, Aadhaar is an authentication system not a tracking system. So privacy is not even relevant here but please correct me if I am mistaken.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#22

Post by shripadk » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 8:17 PM UTC

firasd wrote: post #17

haltingproblem wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the bank was able to fulfill KYC requirements for someone who qualifies for a below the poverty level scheme? Lack of papers is what Aadhaar is supposed to cure. You are passing the identity buck. These people are so poor they live their whole lives without a solid roof over their head. They don't have a birth certificate, a driver's license, a passport. The mere mention of these documents is somewhat of a cruel j…

Yes, even the very poor in India have voter IDs and the schemes in question already require a ration card. You started off by asking about how to reduce corruption (and I answered that as long as there are subsidies there is going to be leakage) but you keep bringing it back to some airy theoretical concept about 'identity in the state' when Aadhaar is a practical force in the country right now. I haven't linked my A…

> I answered that as long as there are subsidies there is going to be leakage

It used to be the case before but is no longer the case. Aadhaar, even by this very article's admission, states that "Officials estimate that taxpayers have saved at least $9.4 billion from Aadhaar by weeding out “ghosts” and other improper beneficiaries of government services."

$9.4 billion is a huge amount of money saved by the exchequer. That is almost 2% of the India's annual budget. In a country with a very small tax base, every rupee saved is an earning in itself.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#23

Post by shripadk » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 8:19 PM UTC

haltingproblem wrote: post #21

shripadk wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you efficiently distribute benefits if you cannot ascertain if the individual is a Citizen, hasn't already taken his/her fair share or isn't scamming the exchequer? You may disagree with the idea but in a country which has a very small tax base and caters to a huge population efficiently distributing benefits becomes the most important priority. Up until Aadhaar, the benefits meant for illiterate/lower income…

> The core issue being that for the poorest of the poor, privacy is secondary to survival. Privacy is probably not on their radar. However, Aadhaar is an authentication system not a tracking system. So privacy is not even relevant here but please correct me if I am mistaken.

Yes you are right in that Aadhaar is currently an authentication system and not a tracking system. But there are definitely instances where Aadhaar data has leaked (not the biometrics, but identity information like Name, Address and Phone numbers) which rightly calls into question privacy related issues.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#24

Post by haltingproblem » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 8:24 PM UTC

firasd wrote: post #17

haltingproblem wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the bank was able to fulfill KYC requirements for someone who qualifies for a below the poverty level scheme? Lack of papers is what Aadhaar is supposed to cure. You are passing the identity buck. These people are so poor they live their whole lives without a solid roof over their head. They don't have a birth certificate, a driver's license, a passport. The mere mention of these documents is somewhat of a cruel j…

Yes, even the very poor in India have voter IDs and the schemes in question already require a ration card. You started off by asking about how to reduce corruption (and I answered that as long as there are subsidies there is going to be leakage) but you keep bringing it back to some airy theoretical concept about 'identity in the state' when Aadhaar is a practical force in the country right now. I haven't linked my A…

> airy theoretical concept

This is personal for you - I am not directly affected by Aaddaar. Perhaps you should step back and ponder the question I had posed. Aadhaar strikes a raw nerve among many. Similar to the debate over ACA in the US.

I am simply trying to understand why.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#25

Post by shripadk » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 8:29 PM UTC

middleclick wrote: post #4

Something related: it doesn't inspire confidence when the person who runs UIDAI (the government organization running the fingerprint program) says this: https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/aadhaar-data-safe-behind-5-i... > Aadhaar Data Safe Behind 5 Feet Thick Walls: Centre to Supreme Court This just shows how poor the understanding of digital security is...

That's a biased article and is taking things out of context. A better understanding would be found at the UIDAI page itself: https://uidai.gov.in/component/fsf/?view=faq&catid=27

To their credit, the leaks that have happened until now haven't happened directly from UIDAI database but by partners who had poorly designed API endpoints which exposed citizen identity data. At the very least, biometric data has never been leaked/hacked into till date. The "5 feet thick walls" reference might be to the vault that is actually housing the biometric dataset which they mention in the above official page as well: "The UID database will be guarded both physically and electronically by a few select individuals with high clearance. It will not be available even for many members of the UID staff and will be secured with the best encryption, and in a highly secure data vault. All access details will be properly logged."

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#26

Post by 8note » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 8:33 PM UTC

firasd wrote: post #2

As a tech professional, it's extra disturbing the way the government pushes these harebrained schemes by marketing them as 'Digital India', 'India Stack', etc. thus getting visiting dignitaries from other countries to lap it up. We really need to be careful that we don't whitewash autocratic bureaucracy by branding it digital innovation. Note the spin from Aadhaar proponents in this NYT article--that it's the equival…

you can't opt out of the interstate highways either. you get stuck with whatever pollution they bring into your neighborhood

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#27

Post by shripadk » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 8:35 PM UTC

zo1 wrote: post #18

rohit2412 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Americans are citizens of their country whether they can prove it or not. Tell that to the undocumented immigrants. You forget that you have a birth certificate to prove you are a citizen.

So then why don't they go and apply to be documented? I'm sure their foreign birth certificate is enough to prove their existence. Oh, that's right, it's illegal and would get declined. Hence the correct term: "illegal immigrants". The topic is complicated and touchy enough without it being muddled with incorrect terminology.

Exactly the reason why India wants documentation via Aadhaar. We have millions of undocumented/illegal immigrants too. From neighbouring Bangladesh (nothing against Bangladeshi's... always welcome through the legal route). They have been enjoying the benefits accorded to them from Indian taxpayer money. Why should Indian exchequer pay for welfare of these illegal immigrants? Before Aadhaar, it was really easy to forge a Voter ID card and start receiving benefits that were due to the poor and needy Indian citizens. You can't forge fingerprints.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#28

Post by woolvalley » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 8:36 PM UTC

firasd wrote: post #17

haltingproblem wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the bank was able to fulfill KYC requirements for someone who qualifies for a below the poverty level scheme? Lack of papers is what Aadhaar is supposed to cure. You are passing the identity buck. These people are so poor they live their whole lives without a solid roof over their head. They don't have a birth certificate, a driver's license, a passport. The mere mention of these documents is somewhat of a cruel j…

Yes, even the very poor in India have voter IDs and the schemes in question already require a ration card. You started off by asking about how to reduce corruption (and I answered that as long as there are subsidies there is going to be leakage) but you keep bringing it back to some airy theoretical concept about 'identity in the state' when Aadhaar is a practical force in the country right now. I haven't linked my A…

So before Aadhaar, what required govt photo ID or tax ID verification in India?

In the USA for example, you need photo ID & a SSN to open pretty much any financial account or to fly. Many businesses require ID to do business with them on an adhoc basis. I also know in many countries ID is required to open any telecom account.

Is the fact that aadhaar is attached to biometrics and the fear of future genocide the root of the controversy?

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#29

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 8:40 PM UTC

shripadk wrote: post #19

mindslight wrote: post #3

> "If you are not able to prove your identity, you are disenfranchised," he said. "You have no existence." This is so fucking disingenuous, and really demonstrates the heart of the problem. If you create a bunch of systems that rely on totalitarian cataloging of humans for their basics of every day life, then when some individuals aren't tracked it sure looks like those individuals' problem. But really the problem is…

How do you efficiently distribute benefits if you cannot ascertain if the individual is a Citizen, hasn't already taken his/her fair share or isn't scamming the exchequer? You may disagree with the idea but in a country which has a very small tax base and caters to a huge population efficiently distributing benefits becomes the most important priority. Up until Aadhaar, the benefits meant for illiterate/lower income…

[deleted]

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#30

Post by shripadk » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 8:50 PM UTC

firasd wrote: post #17

haltingproblem wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the bank was able to fulfill KYC requirements for someone who qualifies for a below the poverty level scheme? Lack of papers is what Aadhaar is supposed to cure. You are passing the identity buck. These people are so poor they live their whole lives without a solid roof over their head. They don't have a birth certificate, a driver's license, a passport. The mere mention of these documents is somewhat of a cruel j…

Yes, even the very poor in India have voter IDs and the schemes in question already require a ration card. You started off by asking about how to reduce corruption (and I answered that as long as there are subsidies there is going to be leakage) but you keep bringing it back to some airy theoretical concept about 'identity in the state' when Aadhaar is a practical force in the country right now. I haven't linked my A…

> I haven't linked my Aadhaar to my phone yet and if the Supreme Court hadn't extended the deadline my phone would have stopped working by now. This thing is a real and present menace, not just a political science question.

I guess you are attacking this issue keeping privacy in mind. However, from the Government's point of view, the need for linking mobile phones is to have a secured way of authenticating your Aadhaar related transactions. The Government doesn't want to end up in a liability if a situation arises where the OTP was sent to a person who later claims that the number did not belong to him in the first place. The Government is actually trying to protect itself from future litigations.

This is the same reason many services, including banks and credit card companies recommend 2-Factor Authentication. Since Aadhaar is primarily an authentication mechanism and not a tracking mechanism, authentication can only be performed either by scanning your fingerprints or via a trusted device through an OTP (in this case, your verified and trusted mobile number). Since a fingerprint scanner is not ubiquitous but a mobile is, the Government is for now relying on mobile OTP for conducting most authentications.