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China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

nytimes.com

141–150 of 150 posts

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#141

Its worth noting the absolutely insane impact that cargo cult Christianity had on China which arguably caused the Chinese civil war. That might be some context as to why Christianity has been singled out? EDIT: why would you downvote this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Heavenly_Kingdom From the source: > A self-proclaimed convert to Christianity, Hong Xiuquan ... [claimed] ... that he was the second son of Go…

You are correct. Few realize that China -- nearly all of it -- had been exposed to Christisnity; albeit, a really bizarre form of it preached by Xiuquan. I don't believe this period of China's history is taught much in China and, after all of the purges and communist stuff that happened later, I don't think it's part of the collective consciousness. Could be wrong. But, my Chinese friends had never even heard of the…

His name was Hong Xiuquan, with Hong being the family name. The movement is known as Taiping Rebellion. It is taught but is portrayed as a just peasant rebellion against the Qing. However the connection with Christianity is only obliquely hinted at.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Christians have been persecuted by polytheists, atheists, Muslims, and many others. Ancient Rome sent many Christians to the lions. The USSR had official state atheism, for example, and persecuted Christians. Certainly Christians have persecuted other Christians, but I think there's little evidence that Christians have been the dominant ones. Much more info is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christ…

That page simply ignores the Christian-on-Christian violence. Where's the Thirty Years' War, "one of the longest and most destructive conflicts in human history"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War

Quote from that page about the Thirty Years War: "Initially a war between various Protestant and Catholic states in the fragmented Holy Roman Empire, it gradually developed into a more general conflict involving most of the great powers. These states employed relatively large mercenary armies, and the war became less about religion and more of a continuation of the France–Habsburg rivalry for European political pre-eminence."

In particular, you have Catholic France against the Catholic Habsburgs, and the issues were not doctrinal. Not what you would expect if this was a war about religion. This was not a war about religion primarily, by the time most of the deaths occurred.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as the voters are controlled by the church, your church has control of your government. In the United States, Christianity has obtained government influence to a shocking degree thanks to huge blocks of Christian voters.

I don't know what you mean "have gained control...to a shocking degree" -- Christians are the ones that founded the country. "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights"... Show some gratitude for the religion from which grew the very concept of human rights you now take for granted in the West and for the faithful wh…

>Show some gratitude for the religion from which grew the very concept of human rights you now take for granted in the West and for the faithful who overthrew monarchs to enshrine those rights, which they believed were given to them by God.

Those same monarchs believed they held the divine right to rule given to them by the same God, and those same Christians believed that same God justified their enslavement of their fellow men, rape and subjugation of women, persecution of Jews, and the genocide of indigenous and "pagan" cultures that refused conversion.

You've got cause and effect reversed. The modern concept of universal human rights as espoused by the Founding Fathers comes from Enlightenment principles, not Christian.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#144
post #64

Another sign (among many) that China is preparing for significant social unrest and probably global instability. I suspect the CCP has concluded that a rebalancing of its economy is inevitable, close at hand, and will be painful for most Chinese. The scale of China's challenge, maintaining order in a nation of its size, guarantees there will be overreach. I thought we might see mesh-networking emerge in Iran as a mea…

China grew tremendously by using domestic controls to suppress wages WRT the foreign markets with which it was competing. What makes anyone think the approach will be any different, in transitioning the current structural changes? Big pressures, but they've also had a couple of decades to greatly increase the tools they have with which to control and navigate this. Plus, the "leader of democracy" -- the U.S. -- has a…

The Chinese government tells us that its people support it 100%, but it continually acts like it is scared to death they are going to revolt.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#145
Part of the problem for the Chinese government is that in a little more than a century, the country has been through 4 quite different political and economic systems. There was traditional Confucianism, then the Western-inspired Nationalist regime, then Maoism,and then the more moderate era that started under Dung Jao Ping. And now Xi is creating a new, more authoritarian system.

As a result the population has no real loyalty to the political system, it just keeps its head down and tries to do as well as it can. And so it will free free to revolt if it gets unhappy enough.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#146
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Even atheists"? Are atheists pretty evil, but not quite this evil? Are atheists well-known for being anti-freedom? Why "even atheists"?

I'm really not trying to start a tit for tat who is worse argument as all religions, including mine (Christian/Catholic) has their fair share of atrocities, but certainly many people were murdered and otherwise oppressed under state atheist regimes in Communist countries. It's worth calling out and remembering.

To late to update my post but I should add that I don't blame you or any other current Catholic for what happened during the dark ages.

And by the way, since that's not clear from my first post: I'm a Christian as well, just not Catholic.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#147

Its worth noting the absolutely insane impact that cargo cult Christianity had on China which arguably caused the Chinese civil war. That might be some context as to why Christianity has been singled out? EDIT: why would you downvote this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Heavenly_Kingdom From the source: > A self-proclaimed convert to Christianity, Hong Xiuquan ... [claimed] ... that he was the second son of Go…

Not really... That is a symptom, not the cause of the Chinese civil war(s). The arrival and the dominance of the Western powers eroded the strength and faith people had in the Qing Dynasty. The Taiping rebellion was a reaction to that but just one event in a long series of the fracturing of China as the Qing declined. Christianity isn't being singled out. Islam is also a target. They oppress the hell out of the Uighu…

Don't forget Tibetan Buddhists.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That page simply ignores the Christian-on-Christian violence. Where's the Thirty Years' War, "one of the longest and most destructive conflicts in human history"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War

Quote from that page about the Thirty Years War: "Initially a war between various Protestant and Catholic states in the fragmented Holy Roman Empire, it gradually developed into a more general conflict involving most of the great powers. These states employed relatively large mercenary armies, and the war became less about religion and more of a continuation of the France–Habsburg rivalry for European political pre-e…

No major conflict is only about religion, including those listed in your link. They're always about power.

But to your specific point, France only entered the war almost twenty years after it started.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#149
post #64

Another sign (among many) that China is preparing for significant social unrest and probably global instability. I suspect the CCP has concluded that a rebalancing of its economy is inevitable, close at hand, and will be painful for most Chinese. The scale of China's challenge, maintaining order in a nation of its size, guarantees there will be overreach. I thought we might see mesh-networking emerge in Iran as a mea…

"History proves bottoms-up accountability delivers much better outcomes than top-down oversight." Oh I'm not so sure about that. At least for results people can see within a short amount of time, a strong, competent authoritarian government can deliver results much faster and people like that. Democracies are messy and difficult. I'm not saying this because I am pro-authoritarianism but rather as an admonishment agai…

I get the impression this is much more likely to happen when one group of elites gets the country into an economic situation that will make them lose their power. In a way, they fucked up, but of course they don't see things that way. (I have never read in the history books about an elite that saw their actions justified by economic results. No their actions are "from God", "noble", "good for the planet", "socially just", "for the plebs", ... and so on. None of them accept the judgement that comes from the real world in terms of economic performance, in fact usually right before they lose power they attempt to falsify economic indicators on a very large scale, because at least some of them do realize that their justifications are bullshit and the result in the real world is all that matters. Those results are usually less than perfect)

Then the old elites and the powerless masses have something in common : they need the government to repress things with a heavy hand. The elites need the government to repress people, because otherwise their power is under threat, or even their persons. The powerless masses want the government to be heavy-handed because they want all the shenanigans and "gentlemen's agreements" that exist with the elites blown up, and they want their newly elected people to have the power to blow those up.

You see a sort of mini version happening currently. Both the middle Americans that elected him and the Bay Area progressives that hate him want Trump to have more power. Obviously things like legislating solutions to "fake news" are very, very bad for both of them, yet they both want it. I even understand how the reasoning works, and where they're both very very wrong.

The progressives want heavy handed government because "they're right" (they mostly are, of course, but) and the population just doesn't see that. So we must legislate and put rules for what the population sees, hears, and so on. Otherwise climate change action, future democratic/progressive politics, open borders, ... and so on are all in great danger.

... except of course with Donald Trump in charge of enforcement actions for this ... things are not going to go well for these causes regardless of the heavy hand. And the rights and powers that the executive power acquires as a result of this legislation ... will be aimed straight at them.

The middle Americans are tired of being marginalized and not listened to. They want their jobs (their industries) protected and left alone. They want limits on imports. Imports of people that complete on the job market, and imports of goods that put their employers out of business.

... except of course automation means this is useless. Furthermore, economically speaking these limits will lead to inflation, and they'll be the last ones to get wage increases. So if this indeed happens (as it appears it will) it will make their situation that much worse, not better. And of course that heavy hand will lead to more government bureaucrats interference in their lives and companies, not less.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#150
post #118

There is going to be repercussion. The Chinese government starts to treat Christianity as a cult like Falun Gong, to which it used the same tactic. But unlike Falun Gong, which is more of a home-brew quasi religion from the 90s, Christianity and missionary activities have been intrinsically rooted in major cities like Nanjing and Shanghai, especially during the wartime. This also sends a danger sign to the Uyghur are…

What kind of repercussions?

One can only presume the same kinds that they faced between 1949 and 1994 or so. So essentially ... none at all.

What baffles me about Chinese people is how acquiescent they are. Ironically the fact that Chinese people trust their government so much is, at least partly, the cause that their government (especially on local level) is so ridiculously untrustworthy.

How untrustworthy ? It is generally accepted that about 80% of Chinese published economic indicators from public institutions are outright fabrication. If you look further into this and what it means, it is baffling. They are lies, and not just lies, but they are lies by people who do not themselves know the true numbers.

About the whole financial community is convinced that the Chinese government itself has no idea about the economic performance of the country because of this pervasive and onmipresent falsification.

In one famous case, a local governor from Mongolia is known to have promised to reduce steel producing capacity by about 20%. Not only did he not do it. He lied about it, and it took the central government about 4 years to realize it had happened (or at least, took 4 years before it was even mentioned anywhere).

The attitude in China must change. I mean, even if the communists just want to remain in power, they must find a way to at least get decent data themselves, as well as trustworthy governors.

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