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China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

nytimes.com

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Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#131

Post by lurquer »

dragonwriter wrote: post #122
lurquer wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if there have been any explicitly Athiest regimes? That is, governments based on an ideology that explicitly denies the existence of God and devalues all religions? If only we had historical examples of such regimes, perhaps we could see if they were benign or murderous. Oh what a pity we don't have such examples.

> I wonder if there have been any explicitly Athiest regimes? Some, but not all, regimes in the Leninist (and Stalinist, etc., derivatives) tradition were/are, and early the French Revolutionary regime briefly was during the period of the establishment of the Cult of Reason (which, while called a “cult” with good was, was atheistic and thus not a religion in the theistic sense), but that was soon replaced by the Cult…

I seriously doubt you're correct. The communist regimes (as well as their demented cousins such as DPRK, Pol Pot, Viet Kong, etc.) murdered millions upon millions of their own people in the 20th century. These regimes could not have been atheistic as such horrendous genoicidal bloodshed is typically the result of Christisnity. I know this to be true, as I've read it many times here.

Stalin and Pol Pot and Mao and Kim were undoubtedly Christians. Atheists are generally rational and not given over to such genocidal tendancies. You need to check your facts.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#132

Post by EliRivers »

dang wrote: post #116
EliRivers wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Even atheists"? Are atheists pretty evil, but not quite this evil? Are atheists well-known for being anti-freedom? Why "even atheists"?

No religious flamewars on HN, please. Upthread was teetering, but here it plummets.

Sure thing, Dang. FWIW, I'd have said the exact same if it had been "even botanists" or "even car mechanics". It just seemed massively orthogonal.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#133

Post by pasbesoin »

rrggrr wrote: post #64

Another sign (among many) that China is preparing for significant social unrest and probably global instability. I suspect the CCP has concluded that a rebalancing of its economy is inevitable, close at hand, and will be painful for most Chinese. The scale of China's challenge, maintaining order in a nation of its size, guarantees there will be overreach. I thought we might see mesh-networking emerge in Iran as a mea…

China grew tremendously by using domestic controls to suppress wages WRT the foreign markets with which it was competing.

What makes anyone think the approach will be any different, in transitioning the current structural changes? Big pressures, but they've also had a couple of decades to greatly increase the tools they have with which to control and navigate this.

Plus, the "leader of democracy" -- the U.S. -- has a leadership that is demonstrating its moral bankruptcy with respect to practicing what it preaches.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#134

Post by salimmadjd »

creep wrote: post #120
salimmadjd wrote: post #104

Christianity has become a political tool now. It's a bit similar to how America feared and still does not allow members of communist party to become US citizens [1]. On the power of evangelical christianity, just look at some parts of central America, where there has been a strong conversion to evangelical Christianity. So strong that, is considered one of the reasons Hounders and Guatemala voted along with Trump adm…

Christianity has always been a political tool. I'm not saying that religion in general is incorrect or that it cannot exist outside of political use in a genuine way-- only that Christianity in particular has always been used in that way.

You're absolutely correct. What I meant to say, it is now a western and particularly more so has become an American political tool.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#135

Post by krapp »

enigma31401 wrote: post #63

Jesus's anarchosyndicalism must be dangerous.

> Jesus's anarchosyndicalism must be dangerous.

    And he said unto them, "Whose is this image and superscription?"
    They said unto him, "Caesar's." Then said he unto them, Render 
    unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the 
    things that are God's.
Please forgive the invocation of a meme on Hacker News but ...u wot m8?

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#136

Post by reitanqild »

lurquer wrote: post #131
dragonwriter wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder if there have been any explicitly Athiest regimes? Some, but not all, regimes in the Leninist (and Stalinist, etc., derivatives) tradition were/are, and early the French Revolutionary regime briefly was during the period of the establishment of the Cult of Reason (which, while called a “cult” with good was, was atheistic and thus not a religion in the theistic sense), but that was soon replaced by the Cult…

I seriously doubt you're correct. The communist regimes (as well as their demented cousins such as DPRK, Pol Pot, Viet Kong, etc.) murdered millions upon millions of their own people in the 20th century. These regimes could not have been atheistic as such horrendous genoicidal bloodshed is typically the result of Christisnity. I know this to be true, as I've read it many times here. Stalin and Pol Pot and Mao and Kim…

> Stalin and Pol Pot and Mao and Kim were undoubtedly Christians.

This is just plain wrong as can be verified by reading up on history.

And this is circular reasoning:

> These regimes could not have been atheistic as such horrendous genoicidal bloodshed is typically the result of Christisnity.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#137

Post by reitanqild »

jsonne wrote: post #39
EliRivers wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Even atheists"? Are atheists pretty evil, but not quite this evil? Are atheists well-known for being anti-freedom? Why "even atheists"?

I'm really not trying to start a tit for tat who is worse argument as all religions, including mine (Christian/Catholic) has their fair share of atrocities, but certainly many people were murdered and otherwise oppressed under state atheist regimes in Communist countries. It's worth calling out and remembering.

I'll take it a bit further:

I'm no Catholic and have never been.

But honestly: while Catholics has done much wrong they don't come anywere near Pol Pot, Stalin, the Reign of Terror etc

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#138

Post by surfmike »

jacquesm wrote: post #106
surfmike wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's more about the monarchy; the monarch is not the spiritual head of the church, and the fact that they are considered the lead if anything shows how the state triumphed over religion.

Separation of Church and state is a thing in many places. Usurping of the power of the Church by the state is just as bad as the reverse.

Agreed; I'm just arguing that it's disingenuous to say the church controls the government in this case.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#139

Post by surfmike »

hexo wrote: post #61
surfmike wrote: post #31

Religion proved to be a strong counter to communism in Eastern Europe. It's no wonder they're scared.

and strong supporters of nazis... (speaking about catholics)

Not strong supporters by any means, and many resistors. Wikipedia has a good page explaining the history. The most you can say is that some Catholics leaders were too compliant and did not protest enough, but countless other Catholics worked actively to save Jews from the holocaust and to counter Naziism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_Nazi_Germa...

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#140

Post by lurquer »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #26

Its worth noting the absolutely insane impact that cargo cult Christianity had on China which arguably caused the Chinese civil war. That might be some context as to why Christianity has been singled out? EDIT: why would you downvote this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Heavenly_Kingdom From the source: > A self-proclaimed convert to Christianity, Hong Xiuquan ... [claimed] ... that he was the second son of Go…

You are correct. Few realize that China -- nearly all of it -- had been exposed to Christisnity; albeit, a really bizarre form of it preached by Xiuquan.

I don't believe this period of China's history is taught much in China and, after all of the purges and communist stuff that happened later, I don't think it's part of the collective consciousness. Could be wrong. But, my Chinese friends had never even heard of the Xiuquan episode. (There are similar 'wierd' periods in European/Americsn history that are likewise glossed over and forgotten.)

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