China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls • Hacker News Board

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#91

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 4:53 PM UTC

ghostbrainalpha wrote: post #60

It's important to note, that while it is now illegal to buy the Bible online in China.... They are still allowed to purchase the Bible from official church bookstores. This is probably more about finding out exactly how many Bibles are being sold in the country rather than completely stopping them from being sold.

> They are still allowed to purchase the Bible from official church bookstores.

Official churches in China (even those notionally identified with other global denominations) are significantly state controlled, monitored, and censored.

> This is probably more about finding out exactly how many Bibles are being sold

And to whom.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#92

Post by acqq » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 4:54 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #80

harimau777 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atheists have a reputation for being anti-religion. This certainly isn't inherent to Atheism or reflective of all Atheists. However, I have met many Atheists who were highly intolerant or disrespectful of religion.

I'm disrespectful of many things, that doesn't mean I want to ban them. Even if they're as dangerous as Christianity.

...or as one another which can’t be named, as it would be “racist.”

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#93

Post by lurquer » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 4:54 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #16

EliRivers wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Even atheists"? Are atheists pretty evil, but not quite this evil? Are atheists well-known for being anti-freedom? Why "even atheists"?

Athiests (the community) are known for being outspoken about the damage that certian religions have caused and are causing, but they're also known for supporting the free exchange of ideas including those that they think are harmful. Atheists (the definition) aren't known for anything because atheism doesn't demand any specific behaviors.

I wonder if there have been any explicitly Athiest regimes? That is, governments based on an ideology that explicitly denies the existence of God and devalues all religions?

If only we had historical examples of such regimes, perhaps we could see if they were benign or murderous.

Oh what a pity we don't have such examples.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#94

Post by icebraining » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 4:54 PM UTC

dwheeler wrote: post #82

icebraining wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why "even atheists"? Historically, atheists are not even close to the biggest aggressors against Christians. That would be other Christians , probably followed by Muslims (during the ascendancy of the Caliphates).

Christians have been persecuted by polytheists, atheists, Muslims, and many others. Ancient Rome sent many Christians to the lions. The USSR had official state atheism, for example, and persecuted Christians. Certainly Christians have persecuted other Christians, but I think there's little evidence that Christians have been the dominant ones. Much more info is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christ…

That page simply ignores the Christian-on-Christian violence. Where's the Thirty Years' War, "one of the longest and most destructive conflicts in human history"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#95

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 4:54 PM UTC

gcb0 wrote: post #18

cjmcqueen wrote: post #5

This is bad. I get that religion has taboos, but religion also has an influence on morals. Yes, there are ways to be a good moral person without the Bible, but are we really giving people agency and the ability to choose if they are sensored? Human rights are human rights and as a human I should have the right to obtain a Bible if I so chose and live the consequences there of.

I think you mean "there are ways to be a good moral person even with the Bible," ? remember that every religion teaches intolerance to other beliefs. if not directly by simply suggesting it is the only truth.

> remember that every religion teaches intolerance to other beliefs.

Every religion teaches disagreement with other beliefs, not every one teaches intolerance of them.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#96

Post by gdwatson » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 4:55 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #15

monochromatic wrote: post #2

That’s... just evil. Even atheists generally support people’s freedom to read and believe as they please.

Why "even atheists"? Historically, atheists are not even close to the biggest aggressors against Christians. That would be other Christians , probably followed by Muslims (during the ascendancy of the Caliphates).

I assume it's because the Chinese government is officially atheist. (You could also add 20th century Communism to your list of significant persecutors -- not the same as the modern Chinese Communist party, but surely atheist.)

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#97

Post by nfoz » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 4:55 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #12

andy_ppp wrote: post #3

What are the Chinese government so scared of! They have complete control in a way not possible in the West, I can’t really foresee how the state would be overthrown by the people there?

They are afraid of other power blocks and that's what churches really are when you strip away the veneer. You can still see this all over Europe, Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, Poland, Germany, Ireland, England, Spain and Italy have very powerful religious entities, and in many other countries even though the religious fractions are not quite that powerful they still have lot of power to influence politics and life in ge…

It may be oversimplifying to say that they're concerned with a power block arising from Christian churches.

They could be concerned with the cultural and viral ideas of the texts themselves. Religious texts beget mindsets, attitudes, ways of life. That could be the disruption to status-quo social order that they're worried about. It may be secondary for power-blocks to arise from people organizing around those uprising belief systems.

Anyway this might be just an administrative stepping stone; maybe just being more consistent in their long-existing sorta-soft-ban on religions, rather than deliberately taking a new step towards banning them even harder. Can anyone here advise how significant this is relative to the status quo?

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#98

Post by surfmike » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 4:56 PM UTC

burfog wrote: post #44

andy_ppp wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The church has literally zero power to do anything in the UK. We live in secular societies and I cannot believe your statement is provably true. No church/religion will ever go up against the power of the Chinese state, unless God herself returns to Earth...

The leader of your church has the right to dissolve parliament. She can also refuse to grant assent to a law. That's not zero power.

That's more about the monarchy; the monarch is not the spiritual head of the church, and the fact that they are considered the lead if anything shows how the state triumphed over religion.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#99

Post by harimau777 » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 4:56 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #80

harimau777 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atheists have a reputation for being anti-religion. This certainly isn't inherent to Atheism or reflective of all Atheists. However, I have met many Atheists who were highly intolerant or disrespectful of religion.

I'm disrespectful of many things, that doesn't mean I want to ban them. Even if they're as dangerous as Christianity.

I agree that we shouldn't ban something just because we dislike/disrespect it; instead I meant that, unfortunately, many people (on both sides) don't see things that way. Sorry if that's not what it sounded like I was saying in my original post.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#100

Post by whatyoucantsay » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 4:56 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #12

andy_ppp wrote: post #3

What are the Chinese government so scared of! They have complete control in a way not possible in the West, I can’t really foresee how the state would be overthrown by the people there?

They are afraid of other power blocks and that's what churches really are when you strip away the veneer. You can still see this all over Europe, Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, Poland, Germany, Ireland, England, Spain and Italy have very powerful religious entities, and in many other countries even though the religious fractions are not quite that powerful they still have lot of power to influence politics and life in ge…

It's odd to see you speaking of the power of religious entities in Europe and staying silent on the Middle East, where they truly are a force that can topple kings.