Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier • Hacker News Board

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#251

Post by Someone1234 » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 5:24 PM UTC

blurbleblurble wrote: post #247

Someone1234 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First he didn't sterilize that stupid thing Huh? Isn't it better that way, we might spread [simple] life to other planets. I'm completely serious, I don't understand what the concern is?

There may already be life on other planets. Whether or not it's simple is a short-sighted human judgement. Look at the big picture. We risk denying these planets the ability to evolve in isolation. That is a decision that cannot be reversed. Do we really want to do that? Maybe so, but it ought to be a conversation. Great measures have been taken to reduce the risk of contaminating other planets with Earth based lifef…

> Whether or not it's simple is a short-sighted human judgement.

You realize I was talking about your "contamination" (e.g. bacterial organisms, microscopic lifeforms, etc)?

> We risk denying these planets the ability to evolve in isolation.

Seems like a fairly limited risk. It is more likely these planets have no form of life at all and that we'd seed their only life (if it could sustain there).

> Great measures have been taken to reduce the risk of contaminating other planets with Earth based lifeforms.

You're conflating craft that were designed to land on other planets and look for life on them, with a space craft.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#252

Post by gormz » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 5:28 PM UTC

gdulli wrote: post #200

gormz wrote: post #40

You can pry the steering wheel out of my cold dead hands. Might be true that on paper these things cause less accidents and less deaths, but I want to be in control of my life. If I die in a car I don't want it to be because of a software bug.

I wouldn't even say it's that they're safer on paper, it's that they're purely hypothetically safer. In the same manner that you're "safer" when entrusting your data to the Googles and Facebooks of the world. Smart people know what they're doing, right?

I mean I don't disbelieve the figures that they reduce traffic accidents in vehicles that are using auto-pilot. It greatly reduces trivial human error. But it doesn't change the fact that it sucks when people die from beta testing a software update they didn't ask for.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#253

Post by jdmichal » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 5:29 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #211

jdmichal wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, this advice is pretty firmly held for hitting things like animals. Albeit for other reasons -- it helps prevent them from going over the hood and towards the windshield. Generally the pitch won't matter that much in vehicle-to-vehicle collisions. Only when the pitch would angle the front bumper completely under the other vehicle, which I admit isn't much of a concern. And not really a concern at all in vehicl…

Accelerating into an animal to increase car's pitch is something I had heard growing up in deer country, but it seems to be a myth: http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/mythbusters-da...

That seems like a silly idea; the pitch change is not nearly as drastic as during braking. Cars decelerate faster than they accelerate. I don't know of any car that can go 0-60 in 100 feet, but there are plenty of cars that can go 60-0 in that distance:

http://www.motortrend.com/news/20-best-60-to-0-distances-rec...

Advice I've seen is to brake as hard as you can to shed energy, then release the brake to correct the pitch as close to collision as you can time it. No acceleration involved.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#254

Post by godshatter » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 5:32 PM UTC

mynegation wrote: post #212

lisper wrote: post #122

Here is my armchair diagnosis: right before the car veers towards the barrier it drives through a stretch of road where the only visible lane marker is on the left. Then the right lane marker comes into view at about the point where the lane starts to widen out for the lane split. The lines that will become the right and left lane markers of the split left and right lanes respectively are right next to the van in fro…

That's probably right or very close to what is happening, but what I cannot understand: what about damn black-and-yellow barrier board right in front of the car closing in at the speed of 60mph? Some sensor should have picked up on that.

This was my thought as well. Doesn't the system have the equivalent of reflexes that override the approved plan?

I've been skeptical of autonomous driving since it started to become a possibility. I spend a fair amount of time making corrections while driving that have nothing to do with what's happening in my immediate vicinity. If it can't handle an obstruction in the road, how will it handle sensing a collision down the road, or a deer that was sensed by the side of the road, or even just backing away from an aggressive driver in a large grouping of vehicles in front of you? I've had to slow down and/or move off on to the shoulder on two lane country roads because someone mistimed it when passing a vehicle. I don't have much faith in how this system would handle that. Not to mention handling an actual emergency failure like a tire blowing out.

I'm sure they will get there eventually, but it looks like they have conquered all the low-hanging fruit and somehow think that's enough. I'm now officially adding "staying away from vehicles studded with cameras and sensors" to my list of driving rules.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#255

Post by singingboyo » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 5:35 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #246

pfooti wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I have a recent Subaru with those features. It beeps when I'm backing out of the garage and there's someone driving or biking up the road before they even come into my sight lines. It can help keep me in a lane, either by beeping or nudging the steering wheel if I drift - I only turn on active lane assist on long highway stretches, it is more of a security blanket than anything else - just in case I space out f…

Subaru's system is simply fantastic and you can tell they thought a lot about the "human condition" (human weaknesses) while designing it. Lame keep assist is very subtle, I describe it like wind blowing on the side of the car. You can trivially over-power it and it will beep if you exit the lane (without blinker on) with or without lane keep assist active. The whole package of safety features is wonderful and impres…

I drive a Nissan myself, but from the sounds of it it's about the same. LDW (just warning in my case), FEB + pedestrian/moving object detection, blind spot detection, intelligent/adaptive cruise control. (There's also a lane keeping system option called ProPilot, but I skipped out on that - I don't think I'd trust it in the regular rain anyway)

Anyway, my point is these things are common now, and while getting the full package might cost a premium, the more important parts (like FEB) are certainly becoming fairly standard.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#256

Post by overcast » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 5:38 PM UTC

patcheudor wrote: post #239

overcast wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're a better friend than I am. That truly is torture, and is the reason I volunteer to drive on ALL trips. I don't care how long. People who can't maintain proper speed without either flooring it, or taking their foot off the pedal, shouldn't be driving.

>People who can't maintain proper speed without either flooring it, or taking their foot off the pedal, shouldn't be driving. Not entirely true. I've been to German driving school and my father really pushed the concept of smooth throttle control on me as a beginning driver. Be smooth always. However, as I was able to afford higher and higher performance vehicles my take on the smooth maintaining of speed without not…

I drive a manual transmission BMW. The shifting, and speed control can be as smooth as glass. It's the driver not the machine. Take consideration for your passenger, and everyone else on the road.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#257

Post by dwild » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 5:43 PM UTC

bjl wrote: post #114

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody's forcing autopilot on anyone. I think instead, tesla will / should opt to disable autopilot earlier in non-ideal conditions like this - that way they won't be held liable either. ATM it really feels like they're being put on trial here.

All the other people on the road are having autopilot forced on them by reckless early adopters.

> by reckless early adopters.

That's a pretty important point. We aren't going to ban alcohol are we? Aren't we even trying to allow marijuana consumption? Both of theses put you in dangerous situation on the road, yet we aren't talking about blocking their consumption.

It still the responsibility of the adopters, just like it's the responsibility of the drinkers.

At least doing it safely actually improve security in long term. Theses systems NEED to be driven to improve their performances.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#258

Post by singingboyo » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 5:50 PM UTC

niftich wrote: post #207

paulie_a wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I hate cruise control. I prefer to be actively engaged when driving. Either I am driving 100% or I am not at all, there is absolutely no middle ground in my opinion

Cruise control is great where there's long stretches of open road, light traffic (LOS A or B [1]), and little need for frequent braking. The star usecase is to set cruise to be very near the speed limit, such that after acceleration events like overtaking, you coast back to highway speed. It's a low-effort way of ensuring that one will be compliant with speed laws most of the time, yet maintaining a steady pace. I to…

ACC/ICC is not a safety feature in the general sense. It might be termed as a safety enhancement to cruise control, in which case it should be opt-out when entering cruise control (which it is, in my case) and which disengages when exiting cruise control (which is done by braking, and that is well known).

On ceding trust - at least with the ICC system in Nissans, it's A) far back, which gives more reaction time B) quite easy to tell when it sees the car in front vs when it doesn't. You're ceding trust, sure, but you can also verify easily.

Your 'tailgate restriction' bit is effectively a more agressive form of collision warning/forward emergency braking, and FCW+FEB as far as I know is available on all or at least most vehicles with ACC/ICC. Unfortunately, the realities of city driving means that 'maintaining distance' is a goal in some cases (i.e. just got cut off, tight merges, etc) rather than an absolute directive - frankly, something trying to force me to a certain distance away from the car in front of me would be more aggravating than useful.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#259

Post by fma » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 5:52 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #240

lisper wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if a simple explanation exists, I'd love to hear it Basically it's a matter of having multiple redundant sensors and sounding the alarm if they don't all agree on what is going on, and also checking if what they think is going on is in the realm of reasonable possibility based on some a priori model (e.g. if suddenly all of your sensors tell you that you are 100 miles from where you were one second ago, that's prob…

That's exactly how a lot of commercial aircraft systems work, they have three, if two agree and one disagree then that one is ignored. But it is more complicated than that when you're talking about algorithms and complex systems. If you had three of the same exact system, they'd likely all make the same mistake and thus you'd gain no safety improvement (except actual malfunctions, not logical limitations). I would li…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_collision_avoidance_s...

I'm not an expert...but it seems like for airplanes there are standards that manufacturers need to abide by for avoidance systems...which would mean testing and certification by an independent association before it's deployed. With manufacturers doing OTA updates...there's really no guarantee it's been tested...you'd have to trust your life to the QA process of each manufacturer. Not only the one of the car you're driving...but the car next to you!

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#260

Post by fma » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 5:54 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #149

jacquesm wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree with your analysis. What is more worrying is that even following the rest of the traffic would have solved the problem. If you are the only car doing something then there is a good chance you are doing something wrong. Also: the lane markings are confusing but GPS and inertial readings should have clearly indicated that that is not a lane. If two systems give conflicting data some kind of alarm should…

> lane markings are confusing but GPS and inertial readings should have clearly indicated that that is not a lane GPS is not accurate enough to reliably pinpoint your location to a particular lane. Even WAAS ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_Area_Augmentation_System ) can have up to 25 feet of error. Basic GPS is less accurate than that. In fact, it's possible that GPS error was a contributing factor here but ther…

I've heard on and off for many years (15 years?) about ad-hoc wireless networks for cars. Whether it's car to car, or car to some devices on the ground (lane marking, stop lights) so it knows where it is at in relationship to the road and other cars - and it would know if the car ahead is going to break or slow down.

Now the cars are relying on cameras, lidar to figure things out. What has happened to putting sensors on the road to broadcast what/where the roads is. Is that out of the question now because of cost?