Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier • Hacker News Board

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#131

Post by greedo » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 2:31 PM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #52

blurbleblurble wrote: post #3

People aren't going to tolerate this kind of stuff. These aren't cosmetic or aesthetic flaws. This is an area that deserves transparency. I'm out on the road too, and I don't get to make "consumer choices" for other people I share the road with. People are putting their market power into companies that lack the basic integrity to build these technologies with safety and transparency as the first priority, who evident…

Nobody's forcing autopilot on anyone. I think instead, tesla will / should opt to disable autopilot earlier in non-ideal conditions like this - that way they won't be held liable either. ATM it really feels like they're being put on trial here.

The market puts all business on trial, on a daily basis. Users discover flaws in a product, and don't buy it. We SHOULD be critical of flaws in things that we buy, and that are forced to interact with.

Ford was put on market trial after the Pinto started going up in flames. Tesla should be held to similar if not greater standards.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#132

Post by rayiner » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 2:32 PM UTC

GoToRO wrote: post #8

ProblemFactory wrote: post #4

If Tesla autopilot relies on good quality road markings, then it's not yet usable in 80% of the world.

It's not usable anywhere. What if I draw a fake line on the road? will it follow it? what if you have wet paint and another vehicle smudges it diagonally to the lane?

I've seen construction crews paint new lines on the road e.g. to reroute traffic due to one lane being closed for expansion. A human driver can easily tell the difference between the fresh new line they should follow and the worn out old one. Can a Tesla?

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#133

Post by overcast » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 2:33 PM UTC

alex_duf wrote: post #117

iainmerrick wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand that. I like cruise control because it lets me focus 100% on steering and watching the road around me. Trying to maintain a steady speed and conserve gas is a fun challenge, but a bit pointless, because a) it's a distraction from more important tasks, and b) the computer can usually do it better than I can.

It's also more comfortable for your passengers. I did a 6 hours trip with a friend continuously putting his foot up and down on the throttle, and it was the most gruelling car trip I've had I think. When I asked he said it was "to keep control on the car". I'm a patient friend.

You're a better friend than I am. That truly is torture, and is the reason I volunteer to drive on ALL trips. I don't care how long. People who can't maintain proper speed without either flooring it, or taking their foot off the pedal, shouldn't be driving.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#134

Post by IAmEveryone » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 2:36 PM UTC

paulie_a wrote: post #86

iainmerrick wrote: post #54

This kind of video makes me wonder: what is the "autopilot" feature actually for? Do people generally like it? (I don't own a Tesla and I've never driven one.) If you're supposed to keep your hands on the wheel, and given videos like this that show you really need to keep your hands on the wheel and pay attention, is automatic steering really that big of a deal? Cruise control, now, that really is useful because it a…

Personally I hate cruise control. I prefer to be actively engaged when driving. Either I am driving 100% or I am not at all, there is absolutely no middle ground in my opinion

We've actually moved quite a bit away from "100%" direct control.

Anti-lock brakes were the first such system. Before, you had to pump the brakes in an emergency, a practice that was difficult to execute even without the shock of an impeding accident. That system alone certainly saves thousands of lives every year.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#135

Post by ghaff » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 2:36 PM UTC

kalleboo wrote: post #127

iainmerrick wrote: post #54

This kind of video makes me wonder: what is the "autopilot" feature actually for? Do people generally like it? (I don't own a Tesla and I've never driven one.) If you're supposed to keep your hands on the wheel, and given videos like this that show you really need to keep your hands on the wheel and pay attention, is automatic steering really that big of a deal? Cruise control, now, that really is useful because it a…

I don't own a car so I drive very rarely (once a month or less). I recently went on a week-long roadtrip in a rental Subaru which had their EyeSight system which does adaptive cruise (follows the speed of the car in front) + lane keeping. I'd say at the end of the day I was noticeably less exhausted than I usually am after a day of driving. The Subaru system will not let you let go of the wheel for more than 15 secon…

I'm looking forward to trying adaptive cruise control on the new Subaru my dad got recently. I pretty much stopped using regular cruise control years ago because the roads where I mostly drive are busy enough I find that it encourages driving in a way that prioritizes maintaining a constant speed even when that's different from the flow of the traffic.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#136

Post by saiya-jin » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 2:37 PM UTC

paulie_a wrote: post #86

iainmerrick wrote: post #54

This kind of video makes me wonder: what is the "autopilot" feature actually for? Do people generally like it? (I don't own a Tesla and I've never driven one.) If you're supposed to keep your hands on the wheel, and given videos like this that show you really need to keep your hands on the wheel and pay attention, is automatic steering really that big of a deal? Cruise control, now, that really is useful because it a…

Personally I hate cruise control. I prefer to be actively engaged when driving. Either I am driving 100% or I am not at all, there is absolutely no middle ground in my opinion

Have you ever drove 15 hours (or even 5) straight? With static speed radars every few kms (like here in Switzerland)? It's very tiring to try to maintain speed on non-flat surface, you should focus on traffic and not being in legal limits. I have to check the speed meter every few seconds, since revs of engine don't change significantly in 10kmh range. This significantly changes my engagement and is borderline dangerous.

Cruise control is a blessing for most cases (i use it even in town), even in dumb old go-constantly-and-watch-out way. I feel sorry for poor fuckers who don't have them in their cars, you can easily see such a car in the way they drive.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#137

Post by jacquesm » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 2:39 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #122

Here is my armchair diagnosis: right before the car veers towards the barrier it drives through a stretch of road where the only visible lane marker is on the left. Then the right lane marker comes into view at about the point where the lane starts to widen out for the lane split. The lines that will become the right and left lane markers of the split left and right lanes respectively are right next to the van in fro…

I totally agree with your analysis. What is more worrying is that even following the rest of the traffic would have solved the problem. If you are the only car doing something then there is a good chance you are doing something wrong.

Also: the lane markings are confusing but GPS and inertial readings should have clearly indicated that that is not a lane. If two systems give conflicting data some kind of alarm should be given to the driver.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#138

Post by Y_Y » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 2:43 PM UTC

Applejinx wrote: post #112

Y_Y wrote: post #7

To be fair it steers _toward_ the barrier. No barriers were harmed. Does Tesla run some sort of regression suite on this stuff? Can they get a copy of the sensor data from when this happened so they can reproduce those conditions as part of their test suite?

You don't need the sensor data, it's obvious. The lane markers widened, and 'straight' is into the (not seen yet) barrier. If the barrier end had a mockup of the ass-end of a car stuck on it (about three times as wide) the Tesla would freak out, panic brake, and still think it was in the center of a single widening lane. It's not mysterious what the car was thinking. If the overall shape of the road wasn't veering sl…

Obvious? Not to the car! My point is that gathering failing cases like this could be a a simple way to gain confidence in a self-driving system, either from the perspective of internal development at Tesla, or even for regulation. Imagine if before you were allowed to push an update to road-going cars you had to show that it doesn't crash in any of the simulations of difficult conditions that the Road Safety Authority has prepared. I'd be in favour of such a thing at least. It's not proof, but it doesn't give any false positives.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#139

Post by bradstewart » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 2:43 PM UTC

davewritescode wrote: post #77

vorpalhex wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So human drivers are terrible at driving for any long period of time, especially on relatively consistent "boring" highways. Guess what computers excel at? Driving consistently on consistent highways. The Tesla Autopilot is supposed to be the always aware and paying attention portion on these cases where a human driver would be very likely to start texting or dozing off. Now, it's not fully autonomous and may well de…

The problem is autopilot actively engages you even less than highway driving. I argue this exacerbates some of the problems that cause humans to checkout. I don't know what the answer is but it feels like GM's super cruise does a more adequate job of acknowledging the realistic limits of the technology and explicitly white lists roads where the technology is available for use. I personally think that without some sor…

If a human can navigate current roads, why shouldn't a computer be able to? We may need to develop a new types of sensors for vehicles, but that seems like a better/easier plan than installing beacons on every road, everywhere.

And what about beacon maintenance? Seems like most cities have a hard enough time keeping up with pot holes, lines, etc. as is.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#140

Post by clort » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 2:44 PM UTC

michaelt wrote: post #82

vorpalhex wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So human drivers are terrible at driving for any long period of time, especially on relatively consistent "boring" highways. Guess what computers excel at? Driving consistently on consistent highways. The Tesla Autopilot is supposed to be the always aware and paying attention portion on these cases where a human driver would be very likely to start texting or dozing off. Now, it's not fully autonomous and may well de…

Guess what computers excel at? Driving consistently on consistent highways. Watching the video, would you say the computer was excelling, or that the road was radically unusual? I wouldn't.

It might not have been radically unusual, but that doesn't make it consistent either.. (looked like lanes where closed to me)