Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier • Hacker News Board

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#171

Post by jacquesm » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 3:22 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #166

jacquesm wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I drive a lot with my GPS (TomTom) on and it rarely gets the lane I'm in wrong, usually that only happens in construction zones. So even if the error can be large in practice it often works very well. It would be very interesting to see the input data streams these self driving systems rely on in case of errors, and in the case of accidents there might even be a legal reason to obtain them (for liability purposes).

> it often works very well Well, yeah, it's not like autopilot is driving cars into barriers every day. But I don't think "often works very well" (and then it kills you) is good enough for most people. It's certainly not good enough for me.

That's absolutely true, however, I did not mean it to take the place of whatever they have running right now, I meant for it to be an input into a system that can detect if there is a potential problem and the driver should be alerted.

Because if I interpret the video correctly either the car was partially in the wrong lane before the near accident or it was about to steer it into a situation like that. And that means it is time to hand off to the driver because the autopilot has either already made an error or is about to make one.

Either way the autopilot should have realized the situation is beyond it's abilities, and when GPS and camera inputs conflict (which I assume was the case) that's an excellent moment for a hand-off.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#172

Post by ryandrake » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 3:22 PM UTC

aequitas wrote: post #160

jacquesm wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I drive a lot with my GPS (TomTom) on and it rarely gets the lane I'm in wrong, usually that only happens in construction zones. So even if the error can be large in practice it often works very well. It would be very interesting to see the input data streams these self driving systems rely on in case of errors, and in the case of accidents there might even be a legal reason to obtain them (for liability purposes).

Don't navigation systems 'snap' to the most probable lane you are driving in based on general direction instead of your exact GPS coordinates? A good example of this I think is when driving in tunnels, there is no GPS info there, but the navigation shows you following the (curved) road.

Good nav systems will fuse whatever inputs they can get including GPS, INS, compass, etc. in order to figure out and ‘snap’ to what road you’re on. Snapping to an individual lane is still AFAIK beyond these systems’ sensors’ capability. You will need an additional input like a camera for this that looks for lane markings.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#173

Post by kozak » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 3:23 PM UTC

The soundtrack fits the video perfectly.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#174

Post by jacquesm » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 3:24 PM UTC

redler wrote: post #170

jacquesm wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree with your analysis. What is more worrying is that even following the rest of the traffic would have solved the problem. If you are the only car doing something then there is a good chance you are doing something wrong. Also: the lane markings are confusing but GPS and inertial readings should have clearly indicated that that is not a lane. If two systems give conflicting data some kind of alarm should…

If you are the only car doing something then there is a good chance you are doing something wrong. I’m surprised self-driving systems don’t do this (do they?). One or more vehicles in front of you that have successfully navigated an area you are now entering is a powerful data point. I’m not saying follow a car off a cliff, but one would think the behavior of followed vehicles should be somehow fused into the car’s p…

"Follow the leader" is a main ingredient in flocking behavior in birds, who rarely if ever collide in flight.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#175

Post by monochromatic » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 3:24 PM UTC

bradstewart wrote: post #139

davewritescode wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is autopilot actively engages you even less than highway driving. I argue this exacerbates some of the problems that cause humans to checkout. I don't know what the answer is but it feels like GM's super cruise does a more adequate job of acknowledging the realistic limits of the technology and explicitly white lists roads where the technology is available for use. I personally think that without some sor…

If a human can navigate current roads, why shouldn't a computer be able to? We may need to develop a new types of sensors for vehicles, but that seems like a better/easier plan than installing beacons on every road, everywhere. And what about beacon maintenance? Seems like most cities have a hard enough time keeping up with pot holes, lines, etc. as is.

If a human can write a novel, why shouldn’t a computer be able to?

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#176

Post by te_chris » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 3:28 PM UTC

iainmerrick wrote: post #54

This kind of video makes me wonder: what is the "autopilot" feature actually for? Do people generally like it? (I don't own a Tesla and I've never driven one.) If you're supposed to keep your hands on the wheel, and given videos like this that show you really need to keep your hands on the wheel and pay attention, is automatic steering really that big of a deal? Cruise control, now, that really is useful because it a…

I rented one yesterday (s), it was my first time in a Tesla. There are a lot of things I didn't like - the interior is ugly and the giant ipad console is stupid and hard to use while driving without any tactile switches. But it IS the future. And WHAT a car. Just f'n brilliant as a package.

BUT...I feel like autopilot should only be for traffic jams on highways. It's downright dangerous the way it forces the driver to disengage. The adaptive cruise control is much better as at least you still have to pay attention but the car manages the throttle and following distances efficiently.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#177

Post by iainmerrick » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 3:28 PM UTC

6DM wrote: post #150

iainmerrick wrote: post #54

This kind of video makes me wonder: what is the "autopilot" feature actually for? Do people generally like it? (I don't own a Tesla and I've never driven one.) If you're supposed to keep your hands on the wheel, and given videos like this that show you really need to keep your hands on the wheel and pay attention, is automatic steering really that big of a deal? Cruise control, now, that really is useful because it a…

I think right now it's only good for stop and go traffic conditions and that's about it. That's still really useful for a lot of people.

So, like the traffic every day along US-101?

This self-driving car craze would be in a very different place if Silicon Valley had halfway decent mass transit...

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#178

Post by gormz » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 3:28 PM UTC

bufferoverflow wrote: post #94

gormz wrote: post #40

You can pry the steering wheel out of my cold dead hands. Might be true that on paper these things cause less accidents and less deaths, but I want to be in control of my life. If I die in a car I don't want it to be because of a software bug.

Most modern cars are drive-by-wire, entirely relying on computers and the software. And their software is huge blobs of proprietary compiled code. It's guaranteed to have bugs.

yeah I guess. That buggy code doesn't drive people into walls or give people the feeling they can read the newspaper while doing one of most dangerous things they do in their day.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#179

Post by gormz » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 3:30 PM UTC

astura wrote: post #96

gormz wrote: post #40

You can pry the steering wheel out of my cold dead hands. Might be true that on paper these things cause less accidents and less deaths, but I want to be in control of my life. If I die in a car I don't want it to be because of a software bug.

You already don't have control over any of the other drivers on the road, some of which are unlicensed, impaired or even homicidal or suicidal. Not to mention your car already has software that can kill you, even if it doesn't steer. Even ignoring software, hardware can have "bugs" in it too that kill you. I'm not sure why you think engineering mistakes are "worse" when they are in the software vs the hardware. Basic…

Yeah there can be other bugs in my car, or other people that do something stupid, but I feel like I am more in control. It is unlikely I die from my engine blowing a gasket or my ECU completely dying. It might be a slight danger to those around me while I coast to the shoulder. But at least it's not going 60 mph into the shoulder...

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#180

Post by rsynnott » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 3:31 PM UTC

e1ven wrote: post #67

> Previous autopilot versions didn't do this. 10.4 and 12 do this 90% of the time. I didn't post it until I got .12 and it did it a few times in case it was a bug in 10.4. This is why the idea of self-updating cars terrifies me. I'd never allow autopatching on a production server - Why would I allow it on hardware I'm betting my life on?

I'm amazed that this is even being permitted. And in almost all territories; practically no-one has banned this practice. It seems absurdly risky, especially once someone finds a security flaw in the Tesla software updater.